The Next Five Years

[craigkillie]

I've seen a couple of people picking up on the age of the Euros squad, but I do think we have to acknowledge that it's been skewed a bit higher because of the injuries to three core squad members who are all 24 or under. When you look at the current players who are 26 or younger (ie will be 30 or younger when we name the next Euros squad) and have been in squads we still have the following, which I think leaves us still fairly well set with a core for the future.

McCrorie, Tierney, Taylor, Doig, Hickey, Patterson, Ralston, McCrorie, Johnston, Porteous, Gilmour, Ferguson, Brown, Doak.

Obviously that's going to be supplemented by some older guys - McTominay and McKenna at 31, McGinn at 33 and probably even Robertson at 34 you'd still expect to be squad members. You'd also expect some of the younger generation, guys who are 16-21 just now to break through. Centre forward is the obvious gap, but that's true in our current squad too, you'd still have Dykes, Shankland and Adams at 32, 32 and 31 who might or might not still be around.

[2426255]

19 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

I've seen a couple of people picking up on the age of the Euros squad, but I do think we have to acknowledge that it's been skewed a bit higher because of the injuries to three core squad members who are all 24 or under. When you look at the current players who are 26 or younger (ie will be 30 or younger when we name the next Euros squad) and have been in squads we still have the following, which I think leaves us still fairly well set with a core for the future.

Spot on, that's not lost on me - particularly with Hickey and Patterson, but also like you say Ferguson. It's an older squad, the oldest it's ever been under Clarke. The mean age of the provisional squad is 28.5 - but there is a group of younger players in the u-21's probably ready to make the jump. Conway, Johnston, Doig, Barron and maybe a few others.

In my view it's not something to panic about, but it's clear there will be some renewal after this tournament. Cooper, Jack and Gordon probably, maybe a few others McLean, Armstrong or Hanley.

Spoiler

 

Edited May 26 by 2426255

[Tartan Blood]

20 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

I've seen a couple of people picking up on the age of the Euros squad, but I do think we have to acknowledge that it's been skewed a bit higher because of the injuries to three core squad members who are all 24 or under. When you look at the current players who are 26 or younger (ie will be 30 or younger when we name the next Euros squad) and have been in squads we still have the following, which I think leaves us still fairly well set with a core for the future.

McCrorie, Tierney, Taylor, Doig, Hickey, Patterson, Ralston, McCrorie, Johnston, Porteous, Gilmour, Ferguson, Brown, Doak.

Obviously that's going to be supplemented by some older guys - McTominay and McKenna at 31, McGinn at 33 and probably even Robertson at 34 you'd still expect to be squad members. You'd also expect some of the younger generation, guys who are 16-21 just now to break through. Centre forward is the obvious gap, but that's true in our current squad too, you'd still have Dykes, Shankland and Adams at 32, 32 and 31 who might or might not still be around.

If our 3 main strikers are still only Dykes, Adams and Shankland 4 years from now, we need to have a serious look at what is going wrong in the development stages.

No disrespect to those 3 players, but surely another striker will be staking a claim by then. Ben Doak might end up being used up front.

[craigkillie]

I said that in my post, but we don't know who those players will be which is why I listed the current ones and not dozens of hypotheticals in the 18-23 age range.

[Butters Scotch]

4 hours ago, Tartan Blood said:

If our 3 main strikers are still only Dykes, Adams and Shankland 4 years from now, we need to have a serious look at what is going wrong in the development stages.

No disrespect to those 3 players, but surely another striker will be staking a claim by then. Ben Doak might end up being used up front.

Tommy Conway is probably next in line if he stays at the current level he's at which looks likely just now.

I could be totally wrong but I don't think Clarke will play Doak through the middle. The striker is usually the focal point in Clarke's teams who don't touch the ball alot with the midfielders running in behind so i think he's more likely to play a role similar to McGinn. Will be interesting to see in the next two friendlies if he gets on. 

[Tartan Blood]

3 hours ago, Butters Scotch said:

Tommy Conway is probably next in line if he stays at the current level he's at which looks likely just now.

I could be totally wrong but I don't think Clarke will play Doak through the middle. The striker is usually the focal point in Clarke's teams who don't touch the ball alot with the midfielders running in behind so i think he's more likely to play a role similar to McGinn. Will be interesting to see in the next two friendlies if he gets on. 

I don't think it would be any time soon that Clarke would try Doak up top. But he might end up having such a big impact that Clarke will either be forced into changing the system, or utilising him up front with more emphasis on keeping the ball on the deck.

It's already hard enough getting McTominay, McGinn, Gilmour, McGregor, Christie and Ferguson in the starting 11. Doak might throw a very welcome spanner into the mix.

Edited May 26 by Tartan Blood

[Jaggy McJagface]

Most of the guys in the 31-33 age range are squad players rather than guys who would get into our best xi.

 

I’d imagine the likes of Jack, Armstrong, Hanley, Cooper and McLean will start to get cycled out gradually to be replaced by Barron, Miller, Watson etc.

[bleedingums]

1 hour ago, Tartan Blood said:

I don't think it would be any time soon that Clarke would try Doak up top. But he might end up having such a big impact that Clarke will either be forced into changing the system, or utilising him up front with more emphasis on keeping the ball on the deck.

It's already hard enough getting McTominay, McGinn, Gilmour, McGregor, Christie and Ferguson in the starting 11. Doak might throw a very welcome spanner into the mix.

There was an interview with Clarke earlier in the season where he talked about how playing Doak through the middle could be effective. The next u21 game and he was playing there. Now I’m not suggesting that Clarke would have told Gemmil to try it but that’s exactly what I’m suggesting.

Edited May 26 by bleedingums

[Tartan Blood]

19 minutes ago, bleedingums said:

There was an interview with Clarke earlier in the season where he talked about how playing Doak through the middle could be effective. The next u21 game and he was playing there. Now I’m not suggesting that Clarke would have told Gemmil to try it but that’s exactly what I’m suggesting.

It's a comforting thought that Clarke has an influence over the u21s. It means he is very much thinking about the long term future of the national team.

This is pretty much confirmed by his comments about the u21s being the reserve list for the Euros. It wouldn't surprise me if Clarke pulled rank and ordered Gemmill to call up Miller and Watson.

[MarkoP]

27 minutes ago, Tartan Blood said:

It's a comforting thought that Clarke has an influence over the u21s. It means he is very much thinking about the long term future of the national team.

This is pretty much confirmed by his comments about the u21s being the reserve list for the Euros. It wouldn't surprise me if Clarke pulled rank and ordered Gemmill to call up Miller and Watson.

Except it’s not really pulling rank, it’s how a proper football association should work

[Butters Scotch]

47 minutes ago, bleedingums said:

There was an interview with Clarke earlier in the season where he talked about how playing Doak through the middle could be effective. The next u21 game and he was playing there. Now I’m not suggesting that Clarke would have told Gemmil to try it but that’s exactly what I’m suggesting.

U/21's completely different to men's fitba though, we would have to change our style to accomodate the likes of Doak in a central position. I don't think we would get the best use out of him there personally and would be stifled in this current formation, would want him on the ball more running at full backs

[Tartan Blood]

1 minute ago, MarkoP said:

Except it’s not really pulling rank, it’s how a proper football association should work

Exactamundo. Clarke has maybe got fed up relying on Gemmill to do his job and is intervening. (as he should)

If I'm not mistaken, both Miller and Watson didn't get called up to the last squad, despite both being nominated for young player of the year and regularly playing senior football.

 

[JS_FFC]

One of the major issues you see in football is youth coaches being judged on their results and not on player development. The under 21s should be seen solely as a vehicle for players to be developed as future internationals. If they win games then great but that’s not the main objective.

 

Scotland Gemmill is a terrible manager. I can’t remember the last Scotland player who had a meaningful U-21s career and went on to do well for the full team. He should have been sacked years ago but the SFA cronyism is a very sad situation. It’s a stick on that he gets Clarke’s job one day. 

[Butters Scotch]

8 minutes ago, JS_FFC said:

One of the major issues you see in football is youth coaches being judged on their results and not on player development. The under 21s should be seen solely as a vehicle for players to be developed as future internationals. If they win games then great but that’s not the main objective.

 

Scotland Gemmill is a terrible manager. I can’t remember the last Scotland player who had a meaningful U-21s career and went on to do well for the full team. He should have been sacked years ago but the SFA cronyism is a very sad situation. It’s a stick on that he gets Clarke’s job one day. 

It is a wonder how he's still there after all this time but I don't watch much of the games so don't really know much about his coaching abilities, why is he so disliked?

Also, the Scotland fans will never get behind him as a manager if he is being seriously considered when Clarke leaves. It will just undo all the good work and momentum that Clarke has built for the national team 

[JS_FFC]

3 minutes ago, Butters Scotch said:

It is a wonder how he's still there after all this time but I don't watch much of the games so don't really know much about his coaching abilities, why is he so disliked?

Also, the Scotland fans will never get behind him as a manager if he is being seriously considered when Clarke leaves. It will just undo all the good work and momentum that Clarke has built for the national team 

 

1. The pipeline from under 21s to full squad has been shite throughout his reign.

 

2. The SFA seriously considered giving him the Scotland job the last twice it was available despite his poor track record.

 

3. His name is Scotland.

[craigkillie]

57 minutes ago, JS_FFC said:

Scotland Gemmill is a terrible manager. I can’t remember the last Scotland player who had a meaningful U-21s career and went on to do well for the full team. He should have been sacked years ago but the SFA cronyism is a very sad situation. It’s a stick on that he gets Clarke’s job one day. 

I don't disagree with you about Gemmill, but I don't think that's really a fair point. The best youngsters (Tierney, Gilmour, Hickey etc) have been playing for the first team by 19/20 so of course they're not going to have made much impact at U21 level.

However, looking back through U21 stalwarts from the last 6/7 years or so, you have John Souttar (11 U21 caps), Greg Taylor (14 U21 caps), Ryan Porteous (14 U21 caps), Lewis Ferguson (11 U21 caps) as the obvious ones who are mainstays in Scotland squads. I don't think it says much either way, because I think development at club level is much more important.

[Old Bing]

10 hours ago, JS_FFC said:

It’s a stick on that he gets Clarke’s job one day. 

If that were to happen we would be as well giving up tbh.

Hes an absolute waste of space. His teams are an absolute rabble. Horrible long ball football, the guys absolutely years past his sell by date and was clueless to begin with.

[2426255]

Just a few words from Clarke indicating that the Nations League will possibly/probably see an element of squad regeneration. Speaking about players not being selected suggesting they should be patient and not give up hope with Lewis Morgan being an example of that.

Quote

We've got some older boys in the squad as well, and it might be, as we move forward to the Nations League games, we need a little refresh. So just keep doing what you're doing.

Steve Clarke

https://www.thenational.scot/sport/24371905.steve-clarke-sends-ryan-gauld-message-lewis-morgan-scotland-call/

 

[Chripper]

With regards to Scot Gemmill, credit where it's due, in the u21 Euro qualifications, we're above Belgium and only behind Spain in our group.

Plus, in the aforementioned euro qualification he's mirrored the formation of the senior team.

Kudos to him for that.

David Moyes is a ready made replacement for Steve Clarke, and he would take the job as he's said it in the past.

It's good to talk about the future but I don't think we should be retiring Steve Clarke too soon.

His contract runs out after the next word cup. And besides, he's earned the right to be the one who decides when it's time to quit.

 

[JS_FFC]

18 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

Just a few words from Clarke indicating that the Nations League will possibly/probably see an element of squad regeneration. Speaking about players not being selected suggesting they should be patient and not give up hope with Lewis Morgan being an example of that.

https://www.thenational.scot/sport/24371905.steve-clarke-sends-ryan-gauld-message-lewis-morgan-scotland-call/

 

I’m not saying this isn’t a good long term idea, but if we are going to end up as a yo-yo team between nations league A and B then you are better off being in league A for a pre euros cycle and league B for the pre World Cup cycle.

 

Being in league A for the pre Euros cycle basically guarantees you a chance play-off and there’s a decent chance your semi final is at home to a diddy (see Poland this time). 
 

For the World Cup the only nations league teams that get a playoff are the best remaining group winners so you’re better being in the league below and going all out to win your group.

 

We should be going all out to avoid relegation from our nations league group this time and then consider tanking the next one although I accept that has adverse consequences for seeding.

Edited June 7 by JS_FFC