Trapdoor to Hell

[ExiledLichtie]

44 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

SPFL money is king at the bottom levels and clubs are shit scared of the drop and losing it without actually looking at the bigger picture. ...

However they can't shut the trapdoor entirely, and one day if the drop happens to them and they end up on the other side they'll quickly realise that climbing back through it is expectionally difficult due to the rules they themselves stubbornly refused to amend.

 

This is exactly right.

[HibeeJibee]

Myth bingo time again?

Every promoted club has substantially increased attendances btw.

EDIT: indeed Edinburgh City went from <150 in LL to 300-450.

Cove debuted biggest in SPFL2, still over 500.

Kelty debuted biggest in SPFL2, still over 500.

Bonnyrigg debuted biggest in SPFL2, repeated this season.

Spartans also over 500.
 

59 minutes ago, May Rckinnon said:

Many HL teams would probably be worse off financially if promoted

Don't be ridiculous.
 

59 minutes ago, May Rckinnon said:

LL only seems to produce the chicken man type clubs.

Eh...?

Kelty?

Bonnyrigg?

Spartans?
 

58 minutes ago, MrFizz said:

This is true. There are maybe 15-20 clubs right now below the SPFL with higher attendances. But is this due to regular good seasons and a prospect of winning things? 

There are 10 averaging 250+* in LL & EOSP alone. Most simply have similar fanbases and populations (or more).

*Albion Rovers (281); Berwick (425); Bo'ness Utd (409); Broxburn (245); Cowdenbeath (289); Dunbar (285); East Kilbride (274); Linlithgow (561); Musselburgh (256); Tranent (316).

Edited May 4 by HibeeJibee

[May Rckinnon]

44 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:

 

Kelty?

Bonnyrigg?

Spartans?
 

There are 10 averaging 250+* in LL & EOSP alone. Most simply have similar fanbases and populations (or more).

*Albion Rovers (281); Berwick (425); Bo'ness Utd (409); Broxburn (245); Cowdenbeath (289); Dunbar (285); East Kilbride (274); Linlithgow (561); Musselburgh (256); Tranent (316).

Kelty absolutely pissed money up the wall. Spartans haven't exactly been strapped for cash either. Bonnyrigg, the only example of a steady, well orchestrated rise within ones means.

Nonsense to think HL promoted sides attendances (a key source of income) would be higher after a a couple of seasons in league 2 than in the HL, less cup competitions, less chance at honours, further traveling, which in turn leads to less away support at home fixtures once the novelty of a new ground wears off. They'd also be competing with other clubs at the league 2 level for the same players, whereas the top sides can currently just have their pick of the bunch in the HL.

It's not as if Elgin or even Peterhead have blown the doors off of the SPFL since they've joined. Both clubs aren't exactly rolling in it either. why would anyone in the HL besides brechin see it as overly appealing or worth the time/money.

 

Edited May 5 by May Rckinnon

[ExiledLichtie]

Interesting that you've chosen to focus on Elgin and Peterhead, rather than y'know, ICT and Ross County.

[HibeeJibee]

8 minutes ago, May Rckinnon said:

Nonsense to think HL promoted sides attendances (a key source of income) would be higher after a a couple of seasons in league 2 than in the HL, less cup competitions, less chance at honours, further traveling, which in turn leads to less away support at home fixtures once the novelty of a new ground wares off. They'd also be competing with other clubs at the league 2 level for the same players, whereas the top sides can currently just have their pick of the bunch in the HL. It's not as if Elgin or even Peterhead have blown the doors off of the SPFL since they've joined.

 

6 minutes ago, ExiledLichtie said:

Interesting that you've chosen to focus on Elgin and Peterhead, rather than y'know, ICT and Ross County.

... plus all 4's attendances grew  also Cove!

Get a high 5 figures rise in league + cup £ too.

Travel would increase but already have long trips to Wick/Brora/etc.

Don't half of Buckie's squad train in Aberdeen btw (i.e. indicating they're actually drawn from much further south than Inverness and Moray?).

Edited May 5 by HibeeJibee

[May Rckinnon]

Just now, ExiledLichtie said:

Interesting that you've chosen to focus on Elgin and Peterhead, rather than y'know, ICT and Ross County.

ICT is a nonsense comparison considering it was an amalgamation. Without the joining of the two sides they likely wouldn't have been granted membership. County, elected members clearly seeking membership. Fairly obvious if clubs wanted to be in the 42 they'd make it known, hence why many of these sides probably aren't arsed about a bronze license.

[May Rckinnon]

1 minute ago, HibeeJibee said:

Don't half of Buckie's squad train in Aberdeen btw (i.e. indicating they're actually drawn from much further south than the Moray coast?).

Correct, and whilst a fair few of that squad are more than capable of playing at a higher level, the fact they're dossing about at Buckie tells you they like being big fish.

Cove is a pish argument as well, peak sugar daddy behaviour. Mitchell Megginson bullying fort William in his pomp.

[ExiledLichtie]

So apart from the former Highland League club that has won the Scottish Cup, and the former Highland league club that has spent the last few seasons in the top league, and the fact that all former HL clubs saw an increased attendance after promotion, oh, and all clubs except Elgin have been promoted at least once, its nonsense to think HL promoted sides attendances (a key source of income) would be higher after a a couple of seasons in league 2, and nonsense to wonder why anyone would find it appealing?

Quality argument.

Edited May 5 by ExiledLichtie

[May Rckinnon]

Ultimately, the trap door needs blown wide open. 

You can't finish bottom of the 42 & be given two games to save your arse. At the same time, you can't have sides in the midlands league & north caley for example winning their leagues & going nowhere, kind of defeats the purpose of a pyramid. 

I don't have the answers as to what the right way to do this is, but it's not whatever this is...

Edited May 5 by May Rckinnon

[May Rckinnon]

4 minutes ago, ExiledLichtie said:

So apart from the former Highland League club that has won the Scottish Cup, and the former Highland league club that has spent the last few seasons in the top league, and the fact that all former HL clubs saw an increased attendance after promotion, oh, and all clubs except Elgin have been promoted at least once, its nonsense to think HL promoted sides attendances (a key source of income) would be higher after a a couple of seasons in league 2, and nonsense to wonder why anyone would find it appealing?

Quality argument.

But hasn't the Buckie debacle shown that perhaps they aren't interested? I have no doubt those in the LL genuinely want to be in league 2. They benefit from being in a bigger catchment area for players. 

Purely going off of last season at forfar, we were paying some daft money to sign utter shite from the west coast & central belt just to attract players to the club. Can't imagine brora for example would fair any better getting decent league 2 players in.

Short term, yeah, likely a boost to finances & bigger gates, long term, you become a Gav price team. 

All I'm saying is, I wouldn't necessarily disagree if some in the HL took the better the devil you know view.

If I was in the LL, I'd want out as soon as possible before the big teams try to throw in even more B teams.

[Ginaro]

5 hours ago, Brian Carrigan said:

No ones arguing that club 42 should be relegated, but I don’t really want to see a plastic club with no fans, managed by a charlatan who powered the league using finance rather than skill be promoted.

EK had 274 average attendance this season, up from 233 - that would surely go up even more in League 2 and get close to Stranraer's 395 average.

5 hours ago, Scary Bear said:

Edinburgh City? Meadowbank stadium used to be acceptable enough. Now it’s an abomination.

I would agree for the end of next season, though who knows if they'll get to that point with their finances and current lack of Bronze licence...

1 hour ago, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

And without that daft bugger Kennedy’s cash what would EK be? I’m all for natural order but not when it involves daft clubs like East Kilbride (who are quite clearly spending WELL outwith their means)

Where would Stranraer be without their SPFL money and national league status? We've seen what happens to ex-SPFL clubs in the LL, with smaller crowds and less money - is that not the natural order, when their ability to attract players etc (especially away from the central belt) is not kept at a higher level by being in the SPFL?

1 hour ago, BFTD said:

My only problem with the pyramid is that there's nothing like enough movement. As things stand, none of these sides have much of a chance of ever coming back. Make League Two a bit bigger, bottom two go down, champions go up, with third and fourth bottom involved in play-offs with the Highland + Lowland league sides from second to fourth. If you can't make fourth in an eighteen team league, you can't have too many complaints.

No need to make the SPFL bigger, just copy the relegation situation used elsewhere and relegate the bottom club (then have a play-off between 9th and the tier 5 play-off loser if you want).

43 minutes ago, May Rckinnon said:

Is it really better to have clubs getting into the 42 having spent over the odds then running out of cash or the sugar daddies running off over having teams like Albion Rovers etc. yes, those relegated so far have been mince, but Scottish football is quite unique in the sense that we have different pockets of the country in which junior clubs operate quite happily where they are with, in some cases, better resources than clubs like Stranraer.

Sorry what's the argument - that we shouldn't have non-league clubs spending money to match national league clubs in case they run out of money in the SPFL, so that clubs with smaller crowds or those where geography plays its part (e.g. away from the central belt, next door to bigger clubs) can be kept in the national leagues? 

You're right that Scottish football is quite unique in that access to the national leagues has been closed off until just 10 years ago.

[May Rckinnon]

Just now, Ginaro said:

You're right that Scottish football is quite unique in that access to the national leagues has been closed off until just 10 years ago.

I'm all for the game being opened up, but it has to be done correctly. 

Whatever view you take, whether it's gatekeeping from some clubs or that the SFA are incompetent diddies, this half arsed effort with numerous hurdles & playoffs just to get into league 2 shows this isn't how pyramids are supposed to work.

[Broonaldo]

3 hours ago, May Rckinnon said:

I'm all for the game being opened up, but it has to be done correctly. 

Whatever view you take, whether it's gatekeeping from some clubs or that the SFA are incompetent diddies, this half arsed effort with numerous hurdles & playoffs just to get into league 2 shows this isn't how pyramids are supposed to work.

Don’t understand why L2 isn’t similar to the other Scottish leagues - what’s wrong with team 42 automatically being relegated and HL/LL winners play off to see who gets their place; the loser of that HL/LL playoff then plays Team 41 (so potentially 2 up 2 down). Alternatively Team 41 and 42 both go down automatically and both HL/LL Champs come up (so definite 2 up 2 down).

But member clubs self-interest will never allow that, it’d be like turkeys voting for Christmas! 

[Clyde_MM]

So East Kilbride had about half the average home attendance that Linlithgow managed despite being from a town more than 5 times the size, assembling an expensive squad and running away with the league?

Obviously worth revisiting if/when they get up to league 2 but, on the face of it, barely anyone in EK cares.

[Moorie]

7 hours ago, May Rckinnon said:

Kelty absolutely pissed money up the wall. Spartans haven't exactly been strapped for cash either. Bonnyrigg, the only example of a steady, well orchestrated rise within ones means.

Nonsense to think HL promoted sides attendances (a key source of income) would be higher after a a couple of seasons in league 2 than in the HL, less cup competitions, less chance at honours, further traveling, which in turn leads to less away support at home fixtures once the novelty of a new ground wears off. They'd also be competing with other clubs at the league 2 level for the same players, whereas the top sides can currently just have their pick of the bunch in the HL.

It's not as if Elgin or even Peterhead have blown the doors off of the SPFL since they've joined. Both clubs aren't exactly rolling in it either. why would anyone in the HL besides brechin see it as overly appealing or worth the time/money.

 

Cove only attracted the big crowd of 500 when they first came up as it was something different and Aberdeen were not playing to the Sunday. Only time they will see 500 again at the moment is unless they get an attractive league cup or Scottish cup game at home. 
Novelty wears off quickly especially with Highland League clubs going up. I do wonder what will happen when the few who I do feel are interested in going up ever do manage it if the playoffs will just become a shame for the HL team who’s in it unless some owner takes over and fancies a crack at it.

I guess it’ll always come down to which teams go down that would fall into the HL attachment area so to speak 

[The Moonster]

8 hours ago, Burnieman said:

They're really not, this sort of stuff has been talked about off and on for years at PGB and there isn't any groundswell of opposition from Premiership clubs to expanding the size of L2 (be that 12, 14 or 16). 

It's left to L1/L2 clubs to make the argument for it but there never is, as the over riding factor is they don't want to increase the number relegation spots regardless of size of league as many don't want to entertain the prospect of no SPFL money if they go down.  A play-off spot is about as much as they can stomach.

Not sure how that attitude changes.

The prize money for the new teams needs to come from somewhere. Are you saying Premiership teams are happy to redistribute the wealth?

[The Moonster]

8 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

 

Kelty?

Bonnyrigg?

Spartans?
 

I'm not sure Kelty is the best argument, they were spending silly money thanks to wealthy backers and had to cut back once that disappeared. They obviously can still support a decent budget thanks to their home support but let's not kid on they didn't get to L1 by spending unsustainable money. 

[ExiledLichtie]

There's an argument that many SPFL teams spend unsustainable money.  Livi doped their way to the top league at least once, East Fife went through a spell some years back of spending big to win a league, do Clyde not currently have someone helping with the finances behind the scenes? I seem to mind Berwick spent big when they won div 3, and then after getting promoted had to make huge cutbacks.  Morton were funded by a wealthy benefactor until just a few years back, and at one point, Stirling were too.  I'm sure people can think of more examples!

The point is that many clubs spend unsustainable money.  Some on a short term boost, others on an "investment" to try and grow the club.

Edited May 5 by ExiledLichtie

[The Moonster]

6 minutes ago, ExiledLichtie said:

There's an argument that many SPFL teams spend unsustainable money.  Livi doped their way to the top league at least once, East Fife went through a spell some years back of spending big to win a league, do Clyde not currently have someone helping with the finances behind the scenes? I seem to mind Berwick spent big when they won div 3, and then after getting promoted had to make huge cutbacks.  Morton were funded by a wealthy benefactor until just a few years back, and at one point, Stirling were too.  I'm sure people can think of more examples!

The point is that many clubs spend unsustainable money.  Some on a short term boost, others on an "investment" to try and grow the club.

All well and fine if you can deal with the fall out of it, the argument I'm making is that the more of these type of teams that come up with no fans and huge wage budgets will eventually not end well. We nearly saw it this year with Edinburgh City. Having League 2 full of doped up sports clubs with 200 fans who only go to home games is not good for Scottish football. You've got to hope the pyramid provides more Bonnyriggs than it does EKs. 

[Burnieman]

54 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

The prize money for the new teams needs to come from somewhere. Are you saying Premiership teams are happy to redistribute the wealth?

I'm saying that actual impact on prizemoney clearly isn't a concern, probably £250k a year at most for 4 extra clubs in L2, the Premiership prize money is around £25m a year.