Trapdoor to Hell

[The Moonster]

4 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

I'm saying that actual impact on prizemoney clearly isn't a concern, probably £250k a year at most for 4 extra clubs in L2, the Premiership prize money is around £25m a year.

If £250k is nothing to them why isn't that already distributed to lower league clubs? They clearly don't need or want it if you're saying they are happy to expand right now. You can believe L1 and 2 clubs are the route of all evil if you like but every club in Scotland is looking out for themselves and I include every club below L2 in that. 

[Burnieman]

1 minute ago, The Moonster said:

If £250k is nothing to them why isn't that already distributed to lower league clubs? They clearly don't need or want it if you're saying they are happy to expand right now. You can believe L1 and 2 clubs are the route of all evil if you like but every club in Scotland is looking out for themselves and I include every club below L2 in that. 

I'm not sure where you're going with this, all I am saying is that Premiership clubs don't appear to have too much opposition to a proposal to expand L2. However it's never been proposed or went to a vote so nothing is certain.

L1/L2 clubs can makes changes to L2 if there's a will, but there isn't a will and some of them will find out the hard way the foolishness of their beligerance.  Stranraer potentially being the next in line.

[The Moonster]

11 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

I'm not sure where you're going with this, all I am saying is that Premiership clubs don't appear to have too much opposition to a proposal to expand L2. However it's never been proposed or went to a vote so nothing is certain.

L1/L2 clubs can makes changes to L2 if there's a will, but there isn't a will and some of them will find out the hard way the foolishness of their beligerance.  Stranraer potentially being the next in line.

L1 and L2 clubs need the approval of every club to change the size of the divisions, they can't approve that themselves. Expanding the division means splitting prize money further. You seem to be of the opinion that Premiership clubs don't care about the slight drop in their income that this would cause, I'm arguing they would otherwise that money would already be distributed to the lower levels if they didn't need or want it. 

You regional boys need to drop this chip on your shoulder. Let's say the clubs you seem to hold in such disregard for not expanding leagues or having automatic relegation spots do get replaced by HL and LL teams - will those teams then vote for automatic relegation when they have the power, or will they think "actually this is quite good now we're here"? 

Edited May 5 by The Moonster

[Burnieman]

Just now, The Moonster said:

L1 and L2 clubs need the approval of every club to change the size of the divisions, they can't approve that themselves. Expanding the division means splitting prize money further. You seem to be of the opinion that Premiership clubs don't care about the slight drop in their income that this would cause, I'm arguing they would otherwise that money would already be distributed to the lower levels if they didn't need or want it. 

You regional boys need to drop this chip on your shoulder. Let's say the clubs you seem to hold in such disregard for not expanding leagues or having automatic relegation spots do get replaced by HL and LL teams - will those teams then vote for automatic relegation when they have the power, or will they think "actually this is quite good now we're here"? 

[The Moonster]

Just now, Burnieman said:

Good point well made. 

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

Any chance we could make moving up the forum even harder than being promoted to League 2? Shut the trap door on these annoying non league turds. Make the League 2 forum great again.

[PTR]

2 hours ago, Clyde_MM said:

Obviously worth revisiting if/when they get up to league 2 but, on the face of it, barely anyone in EK cares.

There are varying factors but this is the one that seals it for me. I live fairly locally to K-Park and have been along quite a few times over the years. Each game has the feeling of a crowd made up of friends and family. You hardly go to the Town Centre or Calderglen and see the place awash with kids in EK tops.

It was a few years ago now, but I went along when they drew with St Mirren and won on penalties in the League Cup groups. Maybe not the most important result in terms singular significance, but for the club it was an incredible result. It just seemed like nobody there cared one bit.

[AUcal]

I'm all for the pyramid opening up and look forward to seeing the clubs that I like reach the dizzy heights of L2 and beyond. There are some excellent clubs, with decent supports and grounds that make for brilliant away days that I would very much like to see climb the leagues. Opening up the pyramid (and hopefully getting automatic relegation from L2) is undoubtedly a big positive for Scottish football.

That being said, I really hope Stranraer completely sword the chicken man and his soldiers of love and send them back into the abyss.

Edited May 5 by AUcal

[bullyweehutch]

I will hear absolutely no moaning from the LL about the Pyramid as long as they allow B teams to buy their way into tier 5 and creating their own bottleneck between the LL and the WOSFL/EOSFL/SOSFL

[Bestsinceslicebread]

3 hours ago, Clyde_MM said:

So East Kilbride had about half the average home attendance that Linlithgow managed despite being from a town more than 5 times the size, assembling an expensive squad and running away with the league?

Obviously worth revisiting if/when they get up to league 2 but, on the face of it, barely anyone in EK cares.

But do they not care, do they care?
You or I do not know that.

There needs to be an interest that gets people involved in the team, to follow the team, to watch the team and the committee have an important part to play in this. Many I believe are volunteers but they have to have good skills in what they do and marketing and ideas is a biggy to stimulate growth.

Its about stimulating the area, good marketing, promoting different avenues to get the interest.
Lets put it straight, if EK do well one year in the Scottish cup and are drawn at home against Rangers or Celtic, yes the park might not be adequate but lets hypothetically say it was used, there will be a lot more than 300 people at the game and many from East Kilbride who will go having never seen EK play. When the game is over, I'm sure there will be many first times who will decide to return.

What is the capacity of K Park?  If for example EK say one home game will be free access, I'm sure there will be a bigger crowd coming and some may enjoy it so much they might decide to follow.

You look at the SPFL2 teams who have been relegated after playoff and haven't been back, not even a sniff, East Stirlingshire, Berwick Rangers, Albion Rovers, Cowdenbeath for example, I will say except Brechin, (beaten in playoff last year, second in league this year). Why haven't they all been back?, have their crowds dwindled?. The fact is, they are not good enough at the moment to come back. This is just natural progression of the pyramid.

I remember reading a year or so ago that Berwick Rangers merged with the biggest academy in Berwick area, (someone can correct me if I'm wrong on this), I thought at the time that this was a great idea to simulate growth and they should have done this years ago but I've not heard how this is going.

 

As I said above, the committee (actually every committee), have a big important job to do in marketing and ideas and stimulating growth.  if any of us go to a game and its a fantastic game of football, we might show an interest and want to know more about that team.

Obviously Ek have money being thrown at the club but they have had this for many years before MK arrived but it just didn't work out previously.
ffs the club have only been going 14 years and now got a chance to be in the SPFL2 on merit and if this happens, will they stay there?, will they progress? or will they drop down?.  This is what the pyramid is all about, the ups and downs of every club in the pyramid.

Edited May 5 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Clyde_MM]

5 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

But do they not care, do they care?
You or I do not know that.

There needs to be an interest that gets people involved in the team, to follow the team, to watch the team and the committee have an important part to play in this. Many I believe are volunteers but they have to have good skills in what they do and marketing and ideas is a biggy to stimulate growth.

Its about stimulating the area, good marketing, promoting different avenues to get the interest.
Lets put it straight, if EK do well one year in the Scottish cup and are drawn at home against Rangers or Celtic, yes the park might not be adequate but lets hypothetically say it was used, there will be a lot more than 300 people at the game and many from East Kilbride who will go having never seen EK play. When the game is over, I'm sure there will be many first times who will decide to return.

What is the capacity of K Park?  If for example EK say one home game will be free access, I'm sure there will be a bigger crowd coming and some may enjoy it so much they might decide to follow.

You look at the SPFL2 teams who have been relegated after playoff and haven't been back, not even a sniff, East Stirlingshire, Berwick Rangers, Albion Rovers, Cowdenbeath for example, I will say except Brechin, (beaten in playoff last year, second in league this year). Why haven't they all been back?, have their crowds dwindled?. The fact is, they are not good enough at the moment to come back. This is just natural progression of the pyramid.

I remember reading a year or so ago that Berwick Rangers merged with the biggest academy in Berwick area, (someone can correct me if I'm wrong on this), I though this is a great idea to simulate growth and they should have done this years ago but I've not heard how this is going.

 

As I said above, the committee (actually every committee), have a big important job to do in marketing and ideas and stimulating growth.  if any of us go to a game and its a fantastic game of football, we might show an interest and want to know more about that team.

Obviously Ek have money being thrown at the club but they have had this for many years before MK arrived but it just didnt work out previously.
ffs the club have only bene going 14 years and now got a chance to be in the SPFL2 on merit and if this happens, will they stay there?, will they progress? or will they drop down?.  This is what the pyramid is all about, the ups and downs of every club in the pyrmaid.

Have EK not already drawn Celtic at home in the Scottish Cup? If what you say is true, the attendances before that must have been shockingly low

[Bestsinceslicebread]

8 minutes ago, Clyde_MM said:

Have EK not already drawn Celtic at home in the Scottish Cup? If what you say is true, the attendances before that must have been shockingly low

I'm not saying its true, its more saying they are building the club, (who says they are doing it the right way or the best way?) they obviously want to grow but will eventually reach their level.  The main factor is about stimulating growth. This falls on the committee and chairman.  Yes money is being thrown at the club but they have a job to do to grow the club.

 

By the way 2015/16 when East Kilbride played Celtic, the club was...5 years old so whatever the crowds were before the Celtic game, it wouldn't be shockingly low, it would just be low as its a new club of 5 years and just growing

Edited May 5 by Bestsinceslicebread

[ExiledLichtie]

3 hours ago, Clyde_MM said:

So East Kilbride had about half the average home attendance that Linlithgow managed despite being from a town more than 5 times the size, assembling an expensive squad and running away with the league?

Obviously worth revisiting if/when they get up to league 2 but, on the face of it, barely anyone in EK cares.

Two things here, firstly, its not all that long since Clyde were trying desperately to become EK Clyde.  Two, are Clyde even from a town any more?  

[Clyde_MM]

2 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

I'm not saying its true, its more saying they are building the club, (who says they are doing it the right way or the best way?) they obviously want to grow but will eventually reach their level.  The main factor is about stimulating growth. This falls on the committee and chairman.  Yes money is being thrown at the club but they have a job to do to grow the club.

Aye, fair. Personally, and I'd imagine for many others, the particular gripe with EK is the combination of burning through money with a miniscule fanbase and having Kennedy/Ferry in charge.

They've maybe taken a financial shortcut to it but the table doesn't lie and they've won the right to promotion on merit. I'd be a hypocrite to criticise a side just for chucking money about as its the only reason we're not going down this season, albeit much of that was used to pay off the squad Duffy assembled last summer.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

5 minutes ago, ExiledLichtie said:

Two things here, firstly, its not all that long since Clyde were trying desperately to become EK Clyde.  Two, are Clyde even from a town any more?  

Oh i didn't realize that one  

[Bestsinceslicebread]

3 minutes ago, Clyde_MM said:

Aye, fair. Personally, and I'd imagine for many others, the particular gripe with EK is the combination of burning through money with a miniscule fanbase and having Kennedy/Ferry in charge.

They've maybe taken a financial shortcut to it but the table doesn't lie and they've won the right to promotion on merit. I'd be a hypocrite to criticise a side just for chucking money about as its the only reason we're not going down this season, albeit much of that was used to pay off the squad Duffy assembled last summer.

There's a history of clubs just in the WOSFL or previously West Juniors league of teams throwing money at clubs for quick fixes and hopefully progression/winning and suppose it will continue in the future at all levels

Edited May 5 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Clyde_MM]

6 minutes ago, ExiledLichtie said:

Two things here, firstly, its not all that long since Clyde were trying desperately to become EK Clyde.  Two, are Clyde even from a town any more?  

A move that was incredibly unpopular with nearly everyone at the club and was promptly shot down.

Our jumping about from town to town is embarrassing, yes. Flip side is, we're still pulling in crowds far in excess of EK. Not to mention the fact we're competing with clubs embedded in communities year on year despite having totally hamstrung ourselves in that regard for about three decades now. It's our own fault but the vast majority of part time clubs subjected to our state of existence would be dead and gone by now, Arbroath included.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

6 minutes ago, Clyde_MM said:

Aye, fair. Personally, and I'd imagine for many others, the particular gripe with EK is the combination of burning through money with a miniscule fanbase and having Kennedy/Ferry in charge.

They've maybe taken a financial shortcut to it but the table doesn't lie and they've won the right to promotion on merit. I'd be a hypocrite to criticise a side just for chucking money about as its the only reason we're not going down this season, albeit much of that was used to pay off the squad Duffy assembled last summer.

One of the things we are really missing out of this. outwith the money being thrown at East Kilbride,  If say East Kilbride win and Stranraer are relegated into the Lowland league, I am 99% certain that Stranraer will not be back into the SPFl2 for a long, long time, (unless if relegated, they somehow they throw huge amount of money into the team to try and win next year - only way back is to do an East Kilbride).   Maybe I'm the only one who thinks this but if most in the same mindset that Stranraer wont be back, doesn't this not tell you about the standard of the clubs lower down in tier 5 and below. 

[Dav nan Gael]

Hopefully with Stranraer relegated,plus with the promotion of Broxburn Athletic into the LL,another 2 "good" guys to change the tide on expelling the "B" teams in a couple of yrs and a extra promotion slot from the East/West/South play-offs.

[BFTD]

13 hours ago, Burnieman said:

An expanded bottom division can happen if the L1 and L2 clubs want it to but they don't, I doubt Premiership clubs give a rats.

SPFL money is king at the bottom levels and clubs are shit scared of the drop and losing it without actually looking at the bigger picture. Four years ago McMenemy at Stenny tried to get pro/rel suspended entirely for 3 seasons to "protect" clubs post covid.  Didn't happen, so he worked towards getting Bronze licence adopted instread to try and slow things down, that worked.

However they can't shut the trapdoor entirely, and one day if the drop happens to them and they end up on the other side they'll quickly realise that climbing back through it is expectionally difficult due to the rules they themselves stubbornly refused to amend.

Expanding League Two isn't the issue, but the increased movement between leagues. I only mentioned having a bigger basement league because if you mention having up to four teams relegated, people always freak out about as many as four teams being relegated from a ten team league every season. A bigger bottom division makes no difference on its own.

There'll only be agreement on this issue if lower league clubs can see a potential route back, and if relegation isn't virtual exile. Kind of like how the SPL breakaway clubs found that Celtgers' superleague idea wasn't quite so great when anyone other than the top two could potentially be cast into the void they left behind.