Artificial pitch vote

[HibeeJibee]

3 hours ago, lubo_blaha said:

Livingston and Kilmarnock are two of the four Premiership sides who bother to participate in the reserve league.

[lubo_blaha]

6 hours ago, GroundHoppingBear said:

If Killie and Livi played on grass pitches there is no way they would have stayed up as long as possible. The ball doesn't roll naturally, making games a lot more of a lottery. Celtics terrible record at Livi certainly wasn't to do with Livingstons excellent technical and tactical ability.

Killie stayed up for years with a grass pitch and got relegated with a plastic pitch.

[LIVIFOREVER]

11 hours ago, lubo_blaha said:

Killie stayed up for years with a grass pitch and got relegated with a plastic pitch.

Rangers were liquidated with a grass pitch..............................nah that doesn't work, was going to say grass pitches are dangerous and should be binned, but Rangers were liquidated with a grass pitch, keep them.

[Kyle Reese]

16 hours ago, lubo_blaha said:

Livingston and Kilmarnock are two of the four Premiership sides who bother to participate in the reserve league.

Yes, and good on them. The reserve league however is not fit for purpose and it needs to be compulsory. It also needs to allow the mixing of youth and returning players from injury, as it once was. The current set up is utter shite. I would prefer my team to have a reserve team in a proper reserve league than a B Team in the Lowland League, personally. If I were to compromise on either proper grass pitches, or a functional reserve league, then it would be an easy choice. We currently have a situation where we have the worst of both worlds.

[lubo_blaha]

11 minutes ago, Kyle Reese said:

Yes, and good on them. The reserve league however is not fit for purpose and it needs to be compulsory. It also needs to allow the mixing of youth and returning players from injury, as it once was. The current set up is utter shite. I would prefer my team to have a reserve team in a proper reserve league than a B Team in the Lowland League, personally. If I were to compromise on either proper grass pitches, or a functional reserve league, then it would be an easy choice. We currently have a situation where we have the worst of both worlds.

I don’t think there’s anyway of guaranteeing it being a mix of youth players and those returning from injury tbh. Making it compulsory also leads to clubs having bloated squads when these players could be out playing football further down the chain.

I would say a good prospect being loaned to the championship/league one and playing in competitive games is the best route for their development. There is definitely something lacking for fringe players though. 

[RandomGuy.]

14 minutes ago, Kyle Reese said:

Yes, and good on them. The reserve league however is not fit for purpose and it needs to be compulsory. It also needs to allow the mixing of youth and returning players from injury, as it once was. The current set up is utter shite.

What about the current set up do you not like?

As far as i can tell senior players can still play in it beside youngsters? Kilmarnocks last game had Gary Mackay-Steven in it, as an example.

[RandomGuy.]

Just now, lubo_blaha said:

I don’t think there’s anyway of guaranteeing it being a mix of youth players and those returning from injury tbh. Making it compulsory also leads to clubs having bloated squads when these players could be out playing football further down the chain.

I would say a good prospect being loaned to the championship/league one and playing in competitive games is the best route for their development. There is definitely something lacking for fringe players though. 

Loan players can still play in the reserve league even when loaned out.

[ScottishZizou]

I think people who say that there isn't a difference between a grass pitch and artificial are being a bit daft. The way that through balls run out the pitch/through to the keeper more often, the way the ball bounces higher but more true, the way the ball is easier to control a pass fired into you as it bobbles less and then you feel more comfortable playing out from the back because of the above. There are pro's and cons and I guess it depends on how you enjoy to play or watch football.

Banks of Dee always had an astroturf pitch in the North Juniors and you always felt there was a better chance of taking something off them at home. How that translates up the pyramid I don't know but it did feel a bit of a different game when they could ping it about easier on the astroturf.

Broadly, I am in favour of them, there are financial reasons and if the aim of the Scottish game is to generate players for the elite level that does have carpets for pitches then having young guys playing on these with a connection to their local club is clearly a good thing. It is significantly easier to play out from the back on an astro than a poor grass pitch.  Allowing youth teams to play on them and solid income streams are probably reason enough alone when business's are struggling so much financially, including football clubs.

What I dislike however is the notion that is sort of baked in that to not like watching a match on astroturf, you are automatically a luddite. It can be jarring sometimes seeing the light bounce off of the plastic and there is an unnatural/sanitised feel to it. The grounds I enjoy visiting are the more old school ones and the astroturf can kill the vibe a little for some people. It creates a sort of community centre sense rather than football ground and probably removes people from the notion that they are on the terraces watching football in the same way as it has been played at that ground for decades which is one of the reasons people still go watch football. There are also people who would just prefer to watch more of a battle on a January dubby pitch where physicality and caution is what's demanded for rather than two teams aiming to play it out the back. 

To tell someone they shouldn't not like something when they know they don't like it is weird.

 

 

[Kyle Reese]

2 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

What about the current set up do you not like?

As far as i can tell senior players can still play in it beside youngsters? Kilmarnocks last game had Gary Mackay-Steven in it, as an example.

Number of clubs, number of matches, regularity of matches.

[RandomGuy.]

1 minute ago, Kyle Reese said:

Number of clubs, number of matches, regularity of matches.

Isnt that all a problem of clubs like your own, and mine, that walked away though? Cant remember who started it, but once one team walked away (did Celtic or Rangers not claim theyd play friendlies v European sides every week instead? Remember thinking it was just an attempt to kill the reserve league to strengthen their "B teams need put in the league" shite) it felt like others starting thinking it was a waste of time.

[LIVIFOREVER]

1 hour ago, ScottishZizou said:

I think people who say that there isn't a difference between a grass pitch and artificial are being a bit daft. The way that through balls run out the pitch/through to the keeper more often, the way the ball bounces higher but more true, the way the ball is easier to control a pass fired into you as it bobbles less and then you feel more comfortable playing out from the back because of the above. There are pro's and cons and I guess it depends on how you enjoy to play or watch football.

Banks of Dee always had an astroturf pitch in the North Juniors and you always felt there was a better chance of taking something off them at home. How that translates up the pyramid I don't know but it did feel a bit of a different game when they could ping it about easier on the astroturf.

Broadly, I am in favour of them, there are financial reasons and if the aim of the Scottish game is to generate players for the elite level that does have carpets for pitches then having young guys playing on these with a connection to their local club is clearly a good thing. It is significantly easier to play out from the back on an astro than a poor grass pitch.  Allowing youth teams to play on them and solid income streams are probably reason enough alone when business's are struggling so much financially, including football clubs.

What I dislike however is the notion that is sort of baked in that to not like watching a match on astroturf, you are automatically a luddite. It can be jarring sometimes seeing the light bounce off of the plastic and there is an unnatural/sanitised feel to it. The grounds I enjoy visiting are the more old school ones and the astroturf can kill the vibe a little for some people. It creates a sort of community centre sense rather than football ground and probably removes people from the notion that they are on the terraces watching football in the same way as it has been played at that ground for decades which is one of the reasons people still go watch football. There are also people who would just prefer to watch more of a battle on a January dubby pitch where physicality and caution is what's demanded for rather than two teams aiming to play it out the back. 

To tell someone they shouldn't not like something when they know they don't like it is weird.

 

 

Nobody is saying that. What they are saying though, is folk telling us about how the ball doesn't run smoothly or bounce consistently compared to grass are gibbering pish, if they think all grass pitches are perfect, they're not, and you get bad bounces and bobbling balls on grass pitches too, esp in the Winter months.

Another fallacy often used if the advantage plastic pitch teams have. Everyone playing on their own pitch, no matter what it's made of, has the advantage of knowing its quirks and how it plays, it's called home advantage for a reason, but these idiots seem to think home advantage only applies to clubs with plastic pitches. Basically when the likes of Killie and Livi are having good seasons it's all credited to them playing on plastic pitches, and how much an advantage they have over other teams, yet when having shite seasons like we're having just now, that same nonsense just doesn't fly. Killie have had good seasons and bad seasons on their plastic pitch, the reason for that is the same for every team, and it has nothing to do with what pitch they play on, just the quality of squad they managed to assemble, and manager they have.

Good grass pitches are 100% better than good plastic ones, bad grass pitches aren't though, and all grass pitches deteriorate during Winter. 

[capt_oats]

19 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Isnt that all a problem of clubs like your own, and mine, that walked away though? Cant remember who started it, but once one team walked away (did Celtic or Rangers not claim theyd play friendlies v European sides every week instead? Remember thinking it was just an attempt to kill the reserve league to strengthen their "B teams need put in the league" shite) it felt like others starting thinking it was a waste of time.

Tbf, although what you're saying there is probably true the 'rebrand' of the Reserves after they did away with the Dev league was an absolute shambles.

To that end it wasn't a massive surprise that teams walked away from it.

The idea had been that the Dev league wasn't fit for purpose because largely you had players playing against their own level with no actual challenge so you got the rose tinted, 'it was better in my day' pish from ex-pros which eventually led to them half-arseing the changes and the result was a total mess.

We binned it this season (but didn't bother telling anyone) and tbh, I think our rationale was as much down to not wanting to have the extra players on the books as it was the general feeling that it was a waste of time. We now have our u18s playing in their league and seem to fill in the gaps with regular bounce games.

It's some laugh that the Dev league set-up gave us specifically the likes of Turnbull, Campbell, Scott, Cadden and Hastie all in broadly the same group along with Dom Thomas, Jack McMillan and a host of others  who, granted, didn't make it with us but you'll still see turning out weekly at various levels through the SPFL but you still had all these ex-pros seething because they weren't getting a game against older pros rehabbing from injury because apparently that would have given them a better grounding in *men's football*.

Edited March 12 by capt_oats

[ScottishZizou]

29 minutes ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

Nobody is saying that. What they are saying though, is folk telling us about how the ball doesn't run smoothly or bounce consistently compared to grass are gibbering pish, if they think all grass pitches are perfect, they're not, and you get bad bounces and bobbling balls on grass pitches too, esp in the Winter months.

Another fallacy often used if the advantage plastic pitch teams have. Everyone playing on their own pitch, no matter what it's made of, has the advantage of knowing its quirks and how it plays, it's called home advantage for a reason, but these idiots seem to think home advantage only applies to clubs with plastic pitches. Basically when the likes of Killie and Livi are having good seasons it's all credited to them playing on plastic pitches, and how much an advantage they have over other teams, yet when having shite seasons like we're having just now, that same nonsense just doesn't fly. Killie have had good seasons and bad seasons on their plastic pitch, the reason for that is the same for every team, and it has nothing to do with what pitch they play on, just the quality of squad they managed to assemble, and manager they have.

Good grass pitches are 100% better than good plastic ones, bad grass pitches aren't though, and all grass pitches deteriorate during Winter. 

My point is there is a difference, the ball does move differently and it is does look different. Whether you are playing or watching. Whether that difference is better or worse or justifiable is personal preference. I can understand why someone doesn't enjoy it as much as grass and that's a valid opinion to have. Just because they are justifiable doesn't mean someone has to enjoy them.

For context, if travel and cost was no different and I had a choice between going to Dunfermline v Raith on grass or Raith v Dunfermline on astro, I'd probably opt for the one on grass pitch. Someone might choose the other way and that's fine. As I said, I think the benefits make them justifiable but to say they don't play into some people's enjoyment factor is nonsense

Edited March 12 by ScottishZizou

[Sortmeout]

Kilmarnock should just ask the SPFL why sectarianism and bigotry is ok but plastic pitches aren’t.

Can we not have a vote on bigotry? 

[Kyle Reese]

1 hour ago, RandomGuy. said:

Isnt that all a problem of clubs like your own, and mine, that walked away though? Cant remember who started it, but once one team walked away (did Celtic or Rangers not claim theyd play friendlies v European sides every week instead? Remember thinking it was just an attempt to kill the reserve league to strengthen their "B teams need put in the league" shite) it felt like others starting thinking it was a waste of time.

There was a vote to scrap it due to cost. I seem to remember Levein at United being on that side of the fence at the time. I do not recall Hearts ever wanting it scrapped though. Rangers, Celtic and possibly one of Hibs and Aberdeen might have wanted to explore other options, like you mention. I just want it back tbh, and I think our league is a worse set-up without it. The reasons why Scottish players stymie at c20 years old are varied and many, and access to pitches is a part of the problem. Not having an adequate step between underage and first team is another.

Edited March 12 by Kyle Reese

[BFTD]

Fucking bizarre how people still talk about astroturf like it's 1988 and players are wearing trackie bottoms to avoid losing their epidermis every other Saturday.

[Scary Bear]

On 08/03/2024 at 23:58, Eaststandee said:

Hopefully we'll never have to see a top flight game on a plastic pitch ever again.

Banning artificial pitches, in a country which plays football during the winter months, when grass doesn’t grow, seems a backward step.

[A Diamond For Me]

4 hours ago, ScottishZizou said:

My point is there is a difference, the ball does move differently and it is does look different. Whether you are playing or watching. Whether that difference is better or worse or justifiable is personal preference. I can understand why someone doesn't enjoy it as much as grass and that's a valid opinion to have. Just because they are justifiable doesn't mean someone has to enjoy them.

For context, if travel and cost was no different and I had a choice between going to Dunfermline v Raith on grass or Raith v Dunfermline on astro, I'd probably opt for the one on grass pitch. Someone might choose the other way and that's fine. As I said, I think the benefits make them justifiable but to say they don't play into some people's enjoyment factor is nonsense

For the parts of the pitch that have grass on it, sure.  They had two Saturday games scrubbed because of problems with their pitch barely a month ago, and when we finally got to play (and beat them) last midweek it looked like this:

If you'd genuinely rather watch fitba on that than on our surface or Raith's then you do you, but let's not pretend that it's better for the game in any meaningful way.  

[LIVIFOREVER]

4 hours ago, ScottishZizou said:

My point is there is a difference, the ball does move differently and it is does look different. Whether you are playing or watching. Whether that difference is better or worse or justifiable is personal preference. I can understand why someone doesn't enjoy it as much as grass and that's a valid opinion to have. Just because they are justifiable doesn't mean someone has to enjoy them.

For context, if travel and cost was no different and I had a choice between going to Dunfermline v Raith on grass or Raith v Dunfermline on astro, I'd probably opt for the one on grass pitch. Someone might choose the other way and that's fine. As I said, I think the benefits make them justifiable but to say they don't play into some people's enjoyment factor is nonsense

Again, that argument only holds up if all grass pitches were the same, they're not, and not one of them is even the same all year round. So how can you possibly say the ball moves differently on a plastic pitch so you don't enjoy watching football played on it, when it moves differently from one grass pitch to the next, and depending what month of the year it's played, differently on the same grass pitch. When it's hot it bounces differently on harder ground, in Winter with USH it affects how the grass is and will bounce differently again, when it has been raining heavily and the ground is soft, it'll bounce differently, etc etc. The grass gets cut up in the Winter months and doesn't grow, even the Celtic manager criticized his own pitch as being awful, and St Johnstone's pitch was pretty bad when we played them on it. To say you'd watch a game on grass over plastic regardless of what condition it is in, is just blinkered, it's such a sweeping generalization.

[ScottishZizou]

11 hours ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

Again, that argument only holds up if all grass pitches were the same, they're not, and not one of them is even the same all year round. So how can you possibly say the ball moves differently on a plastic pitch so you don't enjoy watching football played on it, when it moves differently from one grass pitch to the next, and depending what month of the year it's played, differently on the same grass pitch. When it's hot it bounces differently on harder ground, in Winter with USH it affects how the grass is and will bounce differently again, when it has been raining heavily and the ground is soft, it'll bounce differently, etc etc. The grass gets cut up in the Winter months and doesn't grow, even the Celtic manager criticized his own pitch as being awful, and St Johnstone's pitch was pretty bad when we played them on it. To say you'd watch a game on grass over plastic regardless of what condition it is in, is just blinkered, it's such a sweeping generalization.

How can my preferences on what I would rather watch or play a football match on be a generalisation? A generalisation over my own opinion This is the core of the issue, I am not saying all grass pitches are 100% of the time better than all astroturf pitches. I am saying that close to 100% of the time I would rather watch a match on a grass pitch than an AstroTurf one. Why is that something that some fans take such an issue with?