Strongest 11/McGregor/Ferguson conundrum

[Butters Scotch]

3 hours ago, No_Problemo said:

I have no idea how our centre backs aren’t mobile tbh, it is one of their strengths. 

It's most likely to be Hendry and McKenna/Porteus at the euros, I wouldn't say they say were blessed with pace or quick at intercepting or getting their body infront of the attacker personally.

[Butters Scotch]

37 minutes ago, SlayerX said:

Since 2000 there's been 13 tournaments that Scotland have tried to qualify for:

We've failed 11 times. All with 4 at the back.

We've succeeded with 2. All with a back three. (Double it to four if you go back 24 years)

If anyone genuinely wants to ditch the back three, a system that has brought us 2 European championship finals, and a playoff World Cup place, then it's an extremely interesting take.

We had 22 years of failure with a back four. The record books back it up.

McLeish and Strachan flirted with the back three, only to lose their bottle and switch to a four when the results didn't come.

Steve Clarke had the balls to go against the media and fan pressure, by sticking to a three. And he was rewarded for it.

Scotland haven't produced center backs good enough to play in a four at international level since the 80s/early 90s.

We don't have a McLeish or a Miller or a Gough or a McQueen or a Hansen. We have Hendry, Porteous, Hanley and McKenna.

We're so weak in the middle of defense Tierney is regarded as our best center back.

If Clarke switched back to a back four (he won't) it'll be back to the days of failing to qualify

A three gives the goalkeeper more protection and it gives the defence larger numbers with less space to fill.

There's a reason why Levein, Vogts, Strachan, Burley failed when Brown and Clarke succeeded.

The reason is the formation.

 

 

 

The formation has little to do with anything, it is more Clarke is trying to fit his best players in which happen to mainly be LB's and central midfielders so he has found a system to accommodate that and make it work in our favour. 

For decades now, we've had little competition for places but now we are starting to produce more quality young players playing at higher levels than previously, I'm sure they'll be a time in the near future where we have to adapt the 5 at back system to fit these players in. 

[Old Bing]

1 hour ago, SlayerX said:

Since 2000 there's been 13 tournaments that Scotland have tried to qualify for:

We've failed 11 times. All with 4 at the back.

We've succeeded with 2. All with a back three. (Double it to four if you go back 24 years)

If anyone genuinely wants to ditch the back three, a system that has brought us 2 European championship finals, and a playoff World Cup place, then it's an extremely interesting take.

We had 22 years of failure with a back four. The record books back it up.

McLeish and Strachan flirted with the back three, only to lose their bottle and switch to a four when the results didn't come.

Steve Clarke had the balls to go against the media and fan pressure, by sticking to a three. And he was rewarded for it.

Scotland haven't produced center backs good enough to play in a four at international level since the 80s/early 90s.

We don't have a McLeish or a Miller or a Gough or a McQueen or a Hansen. We have Hendry, Porteous, Hanley and McKenna.

We're so weak in the middle of defense Tierney is regarded as our best center back.

If Clarke switched back to a back four (he won't) it'll be back to the days of failing to qualify

A three gives the goalkeeper more protection and it gives the defence larger numbers with less space to fill.

There's a reason why Levein, Vogts, Strachan, Burley failed when Brown and Clarke succeeded.

The reason is the formation.

 

 

 

Tbh im not pushing at this stage to ditch the back 5 unless there's missing personel and its no longer going to work effectively.

I dont take much from tournaments 30/40 years ago. Football tactics have changed quite a bit since then. Games where every single player from both sides were different doesn't come into it for me.

[Theroadlesstravelled]

57 minutes ago, SlayerX said:

Since 2000 there's been 13 tournaments that Scotland have tried to qualify for:

We've failed 11 times. All with 4 at the back.

We've succeeded with 2. All with a back three. (Double it to four if you go back 24 years)

If anyone genuinely wants to ditch the back three, a system that has brought us 2 European championship finals, and a playoff World Cup place, then it's an extremely interesting take.

We had 22 years of failure with a back four. The record books back it up.

McLeish and Strachan flirted with the back three, only to lose their bottle and switch to a four when the results didn't come.

Steve Clarke had the balls to go against the media and fan pressure, by sticking to a three. And he was rewarded for it.

Scotland haven't produced center backs good enough to play in a four at international level since the 80s/early 90s.

We don't have a McLeish or a Miller or a Gough or a McQueen or a Hansen. We have Hendry, Porteous, Hanley and McKenna.

We're so weak in the middle of defense Tierney is regarded as our best center back.

If Clarke switched back to a back four (he won't) it'll be back to the days of failing to qualify

A three gives the goalkeeper more protection and it gives the defence larger numbers with less space to fill.

There's a reason why Levein, Vogts, Strachan, Burley failed when Brown and Clarke succeeded.

The reason is the formation.

 

 

 

Levein, Vogts, Strachan, Burley presided over the worse set of Scotland players since 1872 tbf.

I do agree Clarke that won't go 4 at the back because it's not his style. He'll always set up for a low block, even against Northern Ireland in a friendly.

[JS_FFC]

Given how we’ve looked with a 5 when one or both of Robertson or Tierney weren’t available I’m not sure I’d be rushing to give all the credit to the formation.

 

It works because we’ve got the right players for it. The players don’t magically become good when employed in that way. It’s just the best way to get two of our best players linking up together.

 

If god forbid either or both aren’t available next month I’d strongly consider a 4-2-3-1, at least against Switzerland and Hungary. Playing 5 ATB was a disaster against Czech Republic in 2021 and Ukraine 2022 without KT whereas we had some success in the September 2022 triple header with a back four when Robertson was out. 

[2426255]

21 hours ago, Butters Scotch said:

Our CB's are not mobile so do you really want them stepping out to help cover and Tierney is usually in a LWB role in attack so for me, we are susceptible to the counter attacks with having Gilmour in there. Ideally you would want the one playing deep in midfield to have the abiltiy to cover the ground (ala like a Kante) in order to delay any attack to allow the team to get goalside. McGregor can get around a bit more but he's still in the mould of a Gilmour type player. I don't think it suits us at all against the better nations to play with both in there as we need a more physical presence like a Christie but then I think Clarke prefers to utilise him in a more attacking role so can't see that happening.

I'm not saying what should happen, I'm not a manager. I'm more interested in what is happening. As I said previously our centre-backs provide defensive support to the midfielders. They step into midfield when we have the ball, but also when we don't. 

https://streamable.com/loy2lk

[Butters Scotch]

2 hours ago, 2426255 said:

I'm not saying what should happen, I'm not a manager. I'm more interested in what is happening. As I said previously our centre-backs provide defensive support to the midfielders. They step into midfield when we have the ball, but also when we don't. 

https://streamable.com/loy2lk

I understand what the plan is with defenders moving up the pitch to help the midfield area, alot of club teams play this way and you see it week in week out.

The point being the likes of Gilmour and McGregor don't really give us that great defensive protection like a more traditional CDM would when we are playing quality opposition and our CB's are about as slow as a week in jail. They've been fitted into the formation as they're our two best CM's that tend to start off the attacking moves when we are in posession which hopefully leads to goals. The offset of having them both in is that we are not as strong defensively.

[Chripper]

16 hours ago, Theroadlesstravelled said:

Levein, Vogts, Strachan, Burley presided over the worse set of Scotland players since 1872 tbf.

I do agree Clarke that won't go 4 at the back because it's not his style. He'll always set up for a low block, even against Northern Ireland in a friendly.

Yeah. Can't argue with that. Our squad under Vogts was shocking.

Under the other managers the squads were ok, though.

People forget that we had players like Barry Ferguson, Hutton, Brown, Darren Fletcher, Maloney, Steven Naismith, Boyd, McFadden, etc.

Noticed the lack of center backs. lol

The previous managers could have fashioned a back three with the likes of Berra, McManus, G.Caldwell, Alexander, etc. Those 4 are equal to the center backs we have now.

When you think about the trio in midfield of Ferguson, D.Fletcher and Brown in front of a 3/5 man defence. It was a wasted opportunity.

The players who I really feel sorry for are Darren Fletcher, McFadden and Ferguson. Those three deserved to showcase their skills at a finals

Especially Darren Fletcher, who was blossoming into a world class player before his illness sadly struck.

[2426255]

1 hour ago, Butters Scotch said:

The point being the likes of Gilmour and McGregor don't really give us that great defensive protection like a more traditional CDM would when we are playing quality opposition and our CB's are about as slow as a week in jail. They've been fitted into the formation as they're our two best CM's that tend to start off the attacking moves when we are in posession which hopefully leads to goals. The offset of having them both in is that we are not as strong defensively.

We don't have a Kante. Maybe Ryan Jack then? Scott McTominay and Callum McGregor were decent as a pair against Spain and away in Norway. I assume what you're getting at is putting Christie there.

I think whoever we have in there it's not going to be perfect. That's international football isn't it?- a jigsaw with pieces that don't quite fit. That's why we play the back-3. That's why the centre-backs step into midfield. To use the team as a whole to balance off the cons of playing a guy like Gilmour so we can get the benefit of what he's good at.

Edited May 20 by 2426255

[Chripper]

The thing about Christie Is he isn't playing as deep for Bournemouth as people think. I've watched a few Bournemouth matches this season. Christie is more a box to box midfield.

Lewis Cook Is the one who anchors the midfield .

Christie spends more time in the opposition half than his own.

Let's be hones, Christie isn't synonymous with tackling, either.

But yes, we need a classic hard tackling no 6. What I'd give to have prime Stuart McCall or even Scott Brown.

Thr best we have is Ryan Jack (who is always injured) or Connor Barron.

Hickey would be brilliant in the anchor position. Apparently, it's his best position. Too bad he's injured.

Below is Christie's EPL season heatmap:

Edited May 20 by SlayerX

[TeeMan]

14 minutes ago, SlayerX said:

The thing about Christie Is he isn't playing as deep for Bournemouth as people think. I've watched a few Bournemouth matches this season. Christie is more a box to box midfield.

Lewis Cook Is the one who anchors the midfield .

Christie spends more time in the opposition half than his own.

Let's be hones, Christie isn't synonymous with tackling, either.

But yes, we need a classic hard tackling no 6. What I'd give to have prime Stuart McCall or even Scott Brown.

Thr best we have is Ryan Jack (who is always injured) or Connor Barron.

Hickey would be brilliant in the anchor position. Apparently, it's his best position. Too bad he's injured.

Below is Christie's EPL season heatmap:

I've not seen much of them either but I agree about Cook. As far as I understand Christie's role in the team is to lead the high press.. I don't see any role for him in the Scotland lineup that isn't that high energy second striker.

[Butters Scotch]

1 hour ago, SlayerX said:

Yeah. Can't argue with that. Our squad under Vogts was shocking.

Under the other managers the squads were ok, though.

People forget that we had players like Barry Ferguson, Hutton, Brown, Darren Fletcher, Maloney, Steven Naismith, Boyd, McFadden, etc.

Noticed the lack of center backs. lol

The previous managers could have fashioned a back three with the likes of Berra, McManus, G.Caldwell, Alexander, etc. Those 4 are equal to the center backs we have now.

When you think about the trio in midfield of Ferguson, D.Fletcher and Brown in front of a 3/5 man defence. It was a wasted opportunity.

The players who I really feel sorry for are Darren Fletcher, McFadden and Ferguson. Those three deserved to showcase their skills at a finals

Especially Darren Fletcher, who was blossoming into a world class player before his illness sadly struck

Out the above, Darren Fletcher would be the only one there to be a starter in our current first 11 (when all fit), the rest would probably make the bench though barring the CB's. Maybe Faddy would take the striker role if he was prime Scotland Faddy. 

No sure how you can say it was a missed opportunity when majority of the team were very average players

[Butters Scotch]

1 hour ago, 2426255 said:

We don't have a Kante. Maybe Ryan Jack then? Scott McTominay and Callum McGregor were decent as a pair against Spain and away in Norway. I assume what you're getting at is putting Christie there.

I think whoever we have in there it's not going to be perfect. That's international football isn't it?- a jigsaw with pieces that don't quite fit. That's why we play the back-3. That's why the centre-backs step into midfield. To use the team as a whole to balance off the cons of playing a guy like Gilmour so we can get the benefit of what he's good at.

Not exactly the hard man type we could do with but Christie's role at Bournemouth could be replicated at Scotland level, his energy levels are incredible and the guy has improved a lot this season in an unfamiliar position.

Post Euros, Ferguson then would be the natural replacement in the centre for me. He's not just a another number ten that people seem to suggest on here, he covers a lot of ground and has great defensive attributes. He would be a more suitable player in the current formation for me if we were to get to the next level

[Chripper]

38 minutes ago, TeeMan said:

I've not seen much of them either but I agree about Cook. As far as I understand Christie's role in the team is to lead the high press.. I don't see any role for him in the Scotland lineup that isn't that high energy second striker.

Agreed.

But it's good to have such a flexible player. I know that he's left footed but I could see him as right wing back. (One of the best ever left backs in the EPL was right footed. Denis Irwin.)

It just shows you how much the Bournemouth manager trusts him and how good Christie is as he's absolutely flourishing in his new role. That role requires a player you can trust.

[2426255]

18 minutes ago, Butters Scotch said:

Post Euros, Ferguson then would be the natural replacement in the centre for me. He's not just a another number ten that people seem to suggest on here, he covers a lot of ground and has great defensive attributes. He would be a more suitable player in the current formation for me if we were to get to the next level

I feel like we're just going round in circles with this. We've already had the discussion where you suggested McGregor is the weak link in our midfield. Ferguson and yourself just have to be patient and I'm sure he'll find a way in.

On 18/05/2024 at 19:19, 2426255 said:

Ferguson? maybe - but isn't it similar to McGinn and McTominay? They can also play the deeper role, but it maybe takes away from the best part of their game. It feels a bit like just forcing him into the team.

[2426255]

On 12/03/2024 at 10:29, The SandDancer said:

Hello, long time lurker but have now decided to sign up and post on here and contribute to discussions.

I just want to make a few points about the team....

Stevie Clarke has done an amazing job, better than anyone can imagine, he's a great fit for the national team and hope he stays around for as long as possible as long as he remains to gets the best out the team and we don't go on some kind of massive decline.

However, there is one irk that I have when he picks the squad.

First point is that we have a great talent on our hands in Lewis Ferguson and I've been very disappointed in that we can't seem to find a place in this team for him. Today in the BBC gossip forum, he is being linked with a host of top Serie A clubs and is clearly appreciated in Italy as being one of the best CM's in the league. I reckon there will also be a number of premier league teams looking to sign him this summer if Bologna not asking for ridiculous money and he has really improved in his time there also with further potential to come IMO.

One of Clarke's strengths is in the trust and loyalty he shows to his players which i think is replicated in the teams performances. However, I see this as a weakness also. Not meaning to single any player out as everyone is contributing but one question i would ask is Calum Mcgregor really a nailed on starter for this team now given our options? He is not a CDM, lacks pace, his passing isn't outrageous for example - I just feel it's now the time to upgrade but he would be a great option to bring on from the bench going forward.

If we really want to make a dent at the Euros, I feel Lewis Ferguson should be looking to take this place in the team IMO or even Ryan Christie is performing at a higher level than him and should be tried here during the upcoming frendlies. You can't really leave out Mctominay, McGinn or Gilmour so Mcgregor IMO is the only one that can be replaced currently. 

@Butters Scotch This was your first post in this thread under your previous account. The thread title is all about this subject. I don't understand why you're so hell bent on getting Ferguson into the team at any cost.

He's not Zidane. he's a good player, but f**k me are you related to him? where has this man crush developed from? I don't get it at all.

Edited May 20 by 2426255

[Butters Scotch]

1 hour ago, 2426255 said:

We don't have a Kante. Maybe Ryan Jack then? Scott McTominay and Callum McGregor were decent as a pair against Spain and away in Norway. I assume what you're getting at is putting Christie there.

I think whoever we have in there it's not going to be perfect. That's international football isn't it?- a jigsaw with pieces that don't quite fit. That's why we play the back-3. That's why the centre-backs step into midfield. To use the team as a whole to balance off the cons of playing a guy like Gilmour so we can get the benefit of what he's good at.

Not exactly the hard man type we could do with but Christie's role at Bournemouth could be replicated at Scotland level, his energy levels are incredible and the guy has improved a lot this season in an unfamiliar position.

Post Euros, Ferguson then would be the natural replacement in the centre for me. He's not just a another number ten that people seem to suggest on here, he covers a lot of ground and has great defensive attributes. He would be a more suitable player in the current formation for me if we were to get to the next level

[Butters Scotch]

17 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

@Butters Scotch This was your first post in this thread under your previous account. The thread title is all about this subject. I don't understand why you're so hell bent on getting Ferguson into the team at any cost.

He's not Zidane. he's a good player, but f**k me are you related to him? where has this man crush developed from? I don't get it at all.

That's no me Numberwang but we do have a similar opinion on this (as do a lot of other people) so I can see why you get yourself in a paranoia. 

If Ferguson was playing regularly for us instead of McGregor then you would be spouting the same stuff about McGregor, "he'll just have to bide his time".

No offence but all you do on here is regurgitate what Steve Clarke says in the media or what you find a  from a stats website, you don't seem to form your own ideas at all. Even the glue sniffer has a few "ideas" on how to improve the team. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[2426255]

2 hours ago, Butters Scotch said:

That's no me Numberwang but we do have a similar opinion on this (as do a lot of other people) so I can see why you get yourself in a paranoia. 

If Ferguson was playing regularly for us instead of McGregor then you would be spouting the same stuff about McGregor, "he'll just have to bide his time".

No offence but all you do on here is regurgitate what Steve Clarke says in the media or what you find a  from a stats website, you don't seem to form your own ideas at all. Even the glue sniffer has a few "ideas" on how to improve the team. 

No offence taken SD. I don't have an issue with you using an alias or with wanting Ferguson in the team. I just think you're over egging him a bit. He's a good player, but you're talking about him as if he's Zidane.

I don't think I know better than Steve Clarke or Thiago Motta. That's why i don't voice my opinions on this and that and I'm happy to defer to the people who have earned the right to pick the team.

[Butters Scotch]

29 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

No offence taken SD. I don't have an issue with you using an alias or with wanting Ferguson in the team. I just think you're over egging him a bit. He's a good player, but you're talking about him as if he's Zidane.

I don't think I know better than Steve Clarke or Thiago Motta. That's why i don't voice my opinions on this and that and I'm happy to defer to the people who have earned the right to pick the team.

No one has made Ferguson out to be Zidane and no one is saying they know better. 

People who actually watch football (obviously that isn't you) and in particular Serie A see how well Ferguson is playing and how much he has developed his game under an excellent coach so want to see him in the team.