Strongest 11/McGregor/Ferguson conundrum

[MarkoRaj]

McGregor is excellent defensively. Where's this idea come from that he's not? Some of his best moments recently have been breaking up attacks

[2426255]

31 minutes ago, MarkoRaj said:

McGregor is excellent defensively. Where's this idea come from that he's not? Some of his best moments recently have been breaking up attacks

It's not as if Fergie hasn't played deeper for Scotland. He came on for Gilmour against The Netherlands and earlier in his Scotland career and for Aberdeen prior to that. He was fine there, we know he can play there. Is he better than what we have there? I wouldn't say so.

Motta doesn't play him deep. It's about shoe horning him into the team because he can't displace McGinn or McTominay. That's what this thread is all about. 

[Butters Scotch]

35 minutes ago, MarkoRaj said:

McGregor is excellent defensively. Where's this idea come from that he's not? Some of his best moments recently have been breaking up attacks

That's not what is being said though, he is good defensively but him and Gilmour are not natural CDM'S. We don't have a lot of pace at CB either so it leaves us exposed against the better teams IMO. 

 

[Chripper]

Maybe there is a place for Ferguson in the XI. Who knows.

Scott McTominay has played right up top, as a false number 9 for Manchester United for the previous couple of games. I'm sure that's where he'll start in the FA Cup final.

If he played in that position for Scotland it would free up a place.

I would actually like to see that. Hopefully we do against Gibraltar. He's a better finisher and Dykes and Adams.

[2426255]

6 minutes ago, Butters Scotch said:

That's not what is being said though, he is good defensively but him and Gilmour are not natural CDM'S. We don't have a lot of pace at CB either so it leaves us exposed against the better teams IMO. 

 

Is Fergie a 'natural' CDM? I don't see where you're coming from with this apart from trying to fit in a player you like somewhere, anywhere.

Edited May 20 by 2426255

[JS_FFC]

On the “strongest 11” point, obviously it depends on injuries/suspensions, the state of the group and how sharp individual players look, but I’d be looking at a slightly different team for the opener compared to the other two matches as of today.

 

Germany

Gunn

 

Porteous-Hendry-Tierney

 

Ralston-McTominay-McGregor-Robertson

 

Christie-McGinn

 

Dykes

 

Switzerland/Hungary

 

Gunn

 

Porteous-Hendry-Tierney

 

Ralston-Gilmour-McGregor-Robertson

 

McTominay-McGinn

 

Adams

 

 

I think games where we are expecting to have more of the ball suit Gilmour playing from the start, Che Adams dropping deeper to get involved in the build up and McTominay making runs into the box to fill the spaces vacated when the defenders step out to mark Adams.

 

Germany on the other hand will dominate possession so you want Lyndon Dykes as the out ball with his hold up skills and then Ryan Christie’s pace on the counter attack. Gilmour is our best passer but can be caught wanting out of possession at times so this doesn’t feel like a Gilmour game.

 

I’ve gone for the same back three as we saw for most of the qualifiers but I’d be equally happy with Hanley playing at the CCB with Hendry at RCB if Clarke wants to add some additional experience at the back. 

[MarkoRaj]

What's a natural CDM? A hard man?

McGregor reads the game better than anyone, he can tackle, his positional sense is excellent

What qualities is he missing that a natural CDM would have?

[PSJ.84]

6 hours ago, JS_FFC said:

Germany

Gunn

 

Porteous-Hendry-Tierney

 

Ralston-McTominay-McGregor-Robertson

 

Christie-McGinn

 

Dykes

 

Right wing back aside, as it’s hard to say when we don’t know the squad, I think you’re absolutely spot on. 

[Butters Scotch]

1 hour ago, MarkoRaj said:

What's a natural CDM? A hard man?

McGregor reads the game better than anyone, he can tackle, his positional sense is excellent

What qualities is he missing that a natural CDM would have?

Gilmour is able to do all of the above also but that doesn't make him a CDM and you seem to think i'm criticising McGregor when I'm not, I just don't think we will get to the next level by playing both regularly in the middle as their main skillsets lie elsewhere.

Mcgregor has sort of forced himself into that role as we don't have anyone else in there really and has put in a lot of great performances in getting round the pitch etc but he is still better with the ball at his feet building up the attacking moves.

Palhinha, Caicedo, Kante, Amrabrat are all examples of your typical CDM, players that tend to be more physical, stronger, robust, intense than our current two starters. 

[Butters Scotch]

10 hours ago, 2426255 said:

Is Fergie a 'natural' CDM? I don't see where you're coming from with this apart from trying to fit in a player you like somewhere, anywhere.

No we don't really have a natural CDM apart from Jack but then I wouldn't want him anywhere near the team tbh, his time has passed.

Fergie has the physicality and game awareness to make us stronger defensively, his passing is excellent also so would be a great addition to the starting 11.

I love Doak as a player but doesn't mean I want him shoehorned in, I don't think he would right for us at this moment in time whereas I think Ferguson would make a big contribution from the start if he was fit.

It'll be the same conversation for both next year no doubt and I fear we will go backwards if we continue to play the same CM's every qualifying or tournament game. The likes of Northern Ireland found a way to play against us, as did Ukraine, as did other teams, we need to be able to adapt the way we play to counteract that.

[2426255]

59 minutes ago, Butters Scotch said:

No we don't really have a natural CDM apart from Jack but then I wouldn't want him anywhere near the team tbh, his time has passed.

Fergie has the physicality and game awareness to make us stronger defensively, his passing is excellent also so would be a great addition to the starting 11.

I love Doak as a player but doesn't mean I want him shoehorned in, I don't think he would right for us at this moment in time whereas I think Ferguson would make a big contribution from the start if he was fit.

It'll be the same conversation for both next year no doubt and I fear we will go backwards if we continue to play the same CM's every qualifying or tournament game. The likes of Northern Ireland found a way to play against us, as did Ukraine, as did other teams, we need to be able to adapt the way we play to counteract that.

f**k off SD. This is why you want Ferguson to play as a CDM:

On 12/03/2024 at 10:29, The SandDancer said:

You can't really leave out Mctominay, McGinn or Gilmour so Mcgregor IMO is the only one that can be replaced currently. 

It's not because he's a better passer than McGregor or Gilmour. It's not because he gives us better physicality than a McTominay or a McGinn back there.  He doesn't even play there for his club side where he's been successful and gained recognition. You have developed a man crush on him and are on a one man mission to squeeze him into the team for reasons unknown.

I'm begging you to stop this charade. Please stop trying to kid us us all on, just admit it and then we can all finally move on from this. 

Edited May 21 by 2426255

[Butters Scotch]

38 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

f**k off SD. This is why you want Ferguson to play as a CDM:

It's not because he's a better passer than McGregor or Gilmour. It's not because he gives us better physicality than a McTominay or a McGinn back there.  He doesn't even play there for his club side where he's been successful and gained recognition. You have developed a man crush on him and are on a one man mission to squeeze him into the team for reasons unknown.

I'm begging you to stop this charade. Please stop trying to kid us us all on, just admit it and then we can all finally move on from this. 

 

39 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

f**k off SD. This is why you want Ferguson to play as a CDM:

It's not because he's a better passer than McGregor or Gilmour. It's not because he gives us better physicality than a McTominay or a McGinn back there.  He doesn't even play there for his club side where he's been successful and gained recognition. You have developed a man crush on him and are on a one man mission to squeeze him into the team for reasons unknown.

I'm begging you to stop this charade. Please stop trying to kid us us all on, just admit it and then we can all finally move on from this. 

You're getting very upset at someone who you think brings no value to this forum . Also, why don't you move on man, you can't accept my opinion on things then fine, leave it there. 

They're all equally good passers of the ball but would say Gilmour nudges ahead. Again, if you watched Serie A, you wouldn't be underating Fergie's passing ability. Check out your stats website for reference if you want and come back to me? You'll see that McGregor makes a lot of the easier passes in game where Ferguson plays a ton more successful progressive passes that can make a big difference in game hence why he is making such a big impact in Italy.

McGregor does play deeper than Ferguson who is more box to box. I haven't said to replace him, I said both Gilmour and McGregor playing together leaves us more exposed IMO and Ferguson would be a better alternative if we are sticking with this formation. He can rotate with the likes of a McTominay (another powerful runner) to help out when on the defence. 

 

[2426255]

14 minutes ago, Butters Scotch said:

McGregor does play deeper than Ferguson who is more box to box. I haven't said to replace him.

Aye you did. See below. 

On 12/03/2024 at 10:29, The SandDancer said:

You can't really leave out Mctominay, McGinn or Gilmour so Mcgregor IMO is the only one that can be replaced currently. 

[Richey Edwards]

What time is the announcement fucking hurry up.

[Butters Scotch]

9 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

Aye you did. See below. 

Funny that because I've mentioned if anything, Gilmour would be the one to be replaced if we are playing both of them at CM in previous posts. 

[2426255]

5 minutes ago, Butters Scotch said:

Funny that because I've mentioned if anything, Gilmour would be the one to be replaced if we are playing both of them at CM in previous posts. 

Come now SD, don't be like that. You're trying to take us for mugs, aren't you? Both Dundee United fans. The SandDancer last visited 3 days before you appeared. You both have a the same manic posting style and you've got identical opinions. Just own up to it, we all know it anyway. 

[Butters Scotch]

Just now, 2426255 said:

Come now SD, don't be like that. You're trying to take us for mugs, aren't you? Both Dundee United fans. The SandDancer last visited 3 days before you appeared. You both have a the same manic posting style and you've got identical opinions. Just own up to it, we all know it anyway. 

Believe what you want my friend, it's irrelevant to me.

I don't get why you are so bothered anyway if someone creates a new account on here, it's all a bit perverse. 

[2426255]

8 minutes ago, Butters Scotch said:

Believe what you want my friend, it's irrelevant to me.

I don't get why you are so bothered anyway if someone creates a new account on here, it's all a bit perverse. 

I'm not bothered. I've created additional accounts in the past, I'm open about that - I have no issue with it. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this thread. It's beyond reasonable doubt that it's about shoehorning Lewis Ferguson into the team because he's one of your favourite players. It's not about what's best for the team. That's the point I'm trying to make.

What I don't know is why? I just can't understand why - he's not that good that we should be trying to shoe horn him into the team or build the team around him.

[Butters Scotch]

30 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

I'm not bothered. I've created additional accounts in the past, I'm open about that - I have no issue with it. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this thread. It's beyond reasonable doubt that it's about shoehorning Lewis Ferguson into the team because he's one of your favourite players. It's not about what's best for the team. That's the point I'm trying to make.

What I don't know is why? I just can't understand why - he's not that good that we should be trying to shoe horn him into the team or build the team around him.

There is nothing to get to the bottom of, it's very simple to understand. I like what Ferguson has done this year in Italy and think he would make us better based on what I saw. He's won the Bulgarelli Number 8 award so it's not just me thinking he is a great player either, it's his fellow players in the IFA.

No one has said to build a team around him either.

You clearly don't agree which is fine. The only way to see if he is given a number of games with the other starters in competetive games which hasn't happened as of yet.

I would love to know what happens when Doak breaks through? Will you just be like, "we can't just shoehorn him in guys".

 

 

[2426255]

30 minutes ago, Butters Scotch said:

There is nothing to get to the bottom of, it's very simple to understand. I like what Ferguson has done this year in Italy and think he would make us better based on what I saw. He's won the Bulgarelli Number 8 award so it's not just me thinking he is a great player either, it's his fellow players in the IFA.

No one has said to build a team around him either.

You clearly don't agree which is fine. The only way to see if he is given a number of games with the other starters in competetive games which hasn't happened as of yet.

I would love to know what happens when Doak breaks through? Will you just be like, "we can't just shoehorn him in guys".

That's all fine, we are in agreement. Lewis Ferguson is a very good player, good midfielder and has had a great season for Bologna.

Our midfield is strong. That's why he hasn't got the game time he and you would like. The same reason why Ryan Gauld hasn't been called up. He plays in the same position as two of our key players. He isn't so good that we need to create a bespoke solution for him like with Tierney and Robbo. He will find a route in sooner rather than later, but for now he (and you) must be patient. His game time for Scotland improved markedly in 2023 compared to 2022. 

If you think it's bad for Scotland, imagine what it must be like at teams with more options than we have. Take a step back, be objective and realise there are understandable reasons why he isn't a starter and that things were moving in his direction before he unfortunately suffered that injury and hopefully will again when he returns.