Ray Patterson Posted August 9 Share Posted August 9 Sure you may have seen in the news that Voepass Flight 2283 crashed near Sao Paolo after entering a tail-spin with 62 deaths. Some the videos online show the plane losing control and as it descends rapidly towards the ground. Spoiler Interestingly, the type of plane was an ATR 72-500, a 75-seater turbo-prop, which is the same plane used by Loganair - albeit 8 of their 12 fleet are the newer variant. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Archer (Raconteur) Posted August 9 Share Posted August 9 I thought this was going to be about a queef. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowsdower Posted August 10 Share Posted August 10 This guy gives a good summary of the accident and possible cause 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TxRover Posted August 10 Share Posted August 10 Active severe icing warning in the area, and the ATR series has proven vulnerable to nasty airflow disruptions if they get slow in icing. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted August 10 Share Posted August 10 5 hours ago, TxRover said: Active severe icing warning in the area, and the ATR series has proven vulnerable to nasty airflow disruptions if they get slow in icing. I thought I'd find you here. I thought they were meant to glide a wee bit? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gannonball Posted August 10 Share Posted August 10 Ooft. Can't park there M8. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MazzyStar Posted August 10 Share Posted August 10 Pilot error 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bairnardo Posted August 10 Share Posted August 10 Mind the footage in, I think maybe Thailand of a plane f**king itself over a motorway sideways into the sea a few years back... That was one of these too IIRC. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TxRover Posted August 11 Share Posted August 11 On 10/08/2024 at 03:07, Sergeant Wilson said: I thought I'd find you here. I thought they were meant to glide a wee bit? Roselawn, Indiana, in 1994. We spent years with restrictions on issuing any holding instructions or speeds on ATR’s when icing was forecast. Basically, the ATR’s wing is very vulnerable to ice forming back from the leading edge during high angle of attack flight, and then when they resume a more normal speed, the airflow disruption of the ice causes a stall. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted August 11 Share Posted August 11 3 minutes ago, TxRover said: Roselawn, Indiana, in 1994. We spent years with restrictions on issuing any holding instructions or speeds on ATR’s when icing was forecast. Basically, the ATR’s wing is very vulnerable to ice forming back from the leading edge during high angle of attack flight, and then when they resume a more normal speed, the airflow disruption of the ice causes a stall. I still thought if the engines stopped a plane could glide, not just drop like a brick. It would've still probably crashed. Maybe it was "best" for those on board that they didn't have as much time to think about it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arch Stanton Posted August 11 Share Posted August 11 Different video 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bairnardo Posted August 11 Share Posted August 11 7 minutes ago, throbber said: It was in Taiwan actually. I have a reoccurring dream that I witness a plane crashing. Not sure what the dream is meant to be telling me. My most frequent recurring dream is being on a plane that takes off but can't get properly up in the air and is constantly struggling, dodging buildings etc 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugster Posted August 11 Share Posted August 11 Just now, Bairnardo said: My most frequent recurring dream is being on a plane that takes off but can't get properly up in the air and is constantly struggling, dodging buildings etc I get that too 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vietnam91 Posted August 11 Share Posted August 11 (edited) On 10/08/2024 at 11:44, MazzyStar said: Pilot error Based on? Aircraft appears to have been affected by ice, 99% of the time it can be combatted with the leading edge and cowling anti-ice. Rime ice and blocked instruments are the real killer beyond pilots being startled and having the presence of mind to address it. If ice is the issue I'd guess the autopilot tried to compensate for the increased drag and lack of performance and put aircraft in a flat spin. Recovery is counter intuitive to cut the power, kick in opposite rudder, pitch down to build up speed and introduce in power and climb out. I've not flown an ATR so I don't know how often that sort of thing is practiced or how vigilant crew are taught to be. In a jet you'd maybe get exposed to it 1 in 6 visits to the simulator because ice exposure and the type of flying are different to turbo props. Far too early to be coming out with pilot error however. Edited August 11 by Vietnam91 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugster Posted August 11 Share Posted August 11 Just now, Vietnam91 said: Based on? Aircraft appears to have been affected by ice, 99% of the time it can be combatted with the leading edge and cowling anti-ice. Rime ice and blocked instruments are the real killer beyond pilots being startled and having the presence of mind to address it. If ice is the issue I'd guess the autopilot tried to compensate for the increased drag and lack of performance and put aircraft in a flat spin. Recovery is counter intuitive to cut the power, rick in opposite rudder, pitch down to build up speed and kick in power and climb out. I've not flown an ATR so I don't know how often that sort of thing is practiced or how vigilant crew are taught to be. In a jet you'd maybe get exposed to it 1 in 6 visits to the simulator because ice exposure and the type of flying are different to turbo props. Far too early to be coming out with pilot error however. wooooosh. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted August 11 Share Posted August 11 21 minutes ago, Vietnam91 said: I've not flown an ATR Funny you should say that... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TxRover Posted August 11 Share Posted August 11 2 hours ago, Sergeant Wilson said: I still thought if the engines stopped a plane could glide, not just drop like a brick. It would've still probably crashed. Maybe it was "best" for those on board that they didn't have as much time to think about it. That's true until the wings stall, at which point an uncontrolled descent begins. The ice formation can disrupt the wing's lift, causing an asymmetrical stall and creating the spinning, flat stall we see here. It can also be caused by asymmetrical deployment of flaps due to a system failure, and has to be caught quickly to prevent the same issue. Practically speaking, if the engines stop, the pilot has to lower the nose of the aircraft to keep the air moving over the wings at sufficient velocity to maintain left. If the nose isn't lowered, the air speed will decay until lift is lost, and a mushing stall or a wingover stall is entered. Of these, a wingover stall might cause a situation similar to what the video shows. A flat hand out a car window will rise until the car slows, then it will reach a point where it just drops...same thing. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TxRover Posted August 11 Share Posted August 11 22 hours ago, Bairnardo said: Mind the footage in, I think maybe Thailand of a plane f**king itself over a motorway sideways into the sea a few years back... That was one of these too IIRC. That one was pilot error...an engine failed and they shutdown the good engine...whoops. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RH33 Posted August 11 Share Posted August 11 1 hour ago, Vietnam91 said: Based on? Aircraft appears to have been affected by ice, 99% of the time it can be combatted with the leading edge and cowling anti-ice. Rime ice and blocked instruments are the real killer beyond pilots being startled and having the presence of mind to address it. If ice is the issue I'd guess the autopilot tried to compensate for the increased drag and lack of performance and put aircraft in a flat spin. Recovery is counter intuitive to cut the power, kick in opposite rudder, pitch down to build up speed and introduce in power and climb out. I've not flown an ATR so I don't know how often that sort of thing is practiced or how vigilant crew are taught to be. In a jet you'd maybe get exposed to it 1 in 6 visits to the simulator because ice exposure and the type of flying are different to turbo props. Far too early to be coming out with pilot error however. AHH your relatively new to P&B or I'd have replied with Woosh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vietnam91 Posted August 11 Share Posted August 11 New to this thread, lesson learned. Enjoy you fun lads 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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