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onlycowdenfanhere

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Spot on Pieman...it's time people realised we're not a footballing power and if anyone can suggest someone who can come in and do better in the short term than Vogts I'd be surprised. Look at the team we had out tonight...pretty much average players - what is Berti going to do? It's time people stopped being so fickle and realised that this is a building process which could take years. If Berti goes the process is disrupted and could take even longer to build a half decent side again.

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Those of you calling for Vogts' heads had better not be the same ones calling him a saviour after we beat Holland.

Look - the time for experimenting is NOT over. It's NEVER over. We only recently lost a game against a good team 6-1, if that's not a time to jiggle things around a bit, I don't know what is. Friendlies are MADE for him to throw different players into the mix and see what happens. Give him time, judge him after we play Moldova and Norway and Italy.

He's better than Brown was, he seems to genuinely care about the job, his record on the whole has been a GOOD one and above all his "reign" has been an exciting one - who the f**k else do we get if not him, anyway?

VOGTS MUST STAY!

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I don't the overall game merited 4-0 to Wales. Easrnshaw was certainly a handful but IMO we had an understrength team out there.

The only players who came out of that with any credit were Christian Daily (who I thought was outstanding once again in midfield), Fletcher (who will be a great player for us one day), Dickov (who although didn't get much joy, worked his socks off) and Paul Gallagher (who gave us something different in attack and is definately one for the future).

Special mention goes to Rab Douglas, Paul Ritchie, Stephen Caldwell and Murty for being pish! :angry:

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Guest dirtybasturk

Man you people are easy to please.

In Vogts first few games we lost 5-0 to France, 4-1 to Korea and drew with Faroes. In his last two we lost 6-0 and 4-0. Wales squad is not much better than ours.

You can't keep experimenting without ever getting anywhere.

Friendlies are important to most Scotland fans whether you or Vogts like it or not.

VOGTS GET TAE f**k

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Man you people are easy to please.

In Vogts first few games we lost 5-0 to France, 4-1 to Korea and drew with Faroes. In his last two we lost 6-0 and 4-0. Wales squad is not much better than ours.

You can't keep experimenting without ever getting anywhere.

Friendlies are important to most Scotland fans whether you or Vogts like it or not.

VOGTS GET TAE f**k

OK, so we sack Vogts...then what? Who replaces him, bearing in mind that the SFA will have to shell out a 6 figure sum to pay him off, and that whoever takes the job would have the same resources as Berti does now. If anything we could go backwards by replacing Vogts.

I tend to agree with nach0king (that must be a first! :P ) - it was only a friendly, and the time for experimenting with players is never over, so where better to do this than in friendlies.

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what a complete and utter embarrassment last night.

After the guy taylor strolled in the 4th i felt like crying.

I dont know if its vogts fault or if its just that we have sh1te players.

I feel sorry for guys like fletcher who is clearly a good player but has to play in that sh1tty team.

We may as well just pack in the international footie as we are fcuking pathetic!

Sort it out scotland, this is torture!

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Guest xbasslichtie

So the plan is to play exactly the same team through every friendly, not to worry about potential reserves because Scotland first choices NEVER get injured.

Get real, Vogts record isnt THAT bad, ignore friendlies and focus on competitive games and he has done okay. The whole structure of our national side has been modernised, we have U21's playing regulary, a field of progression from U18 to U21 to Future to Seniors, something that we havent had of late, he has energised the game and given us our passion back, and these are all to be commended.

We havent got the players to field a world class team, Vogts can only work with what he has. In a few years when the current U-18's make the step up to the senior, then we will appreciate what he has done for us! So long as he produces the goods in competitive games, he should stay!

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You've got to look at it this way in qualifying for Euro 2004...did we have better players than...

Germany? No

Iceland? I would argue we don't

Lithuania? We are probably on their level

Fareo Islands? Yes

The Netherlands? No

In that group, the weakest or not, we probably should've finished 3rd or 4th. Until people start to realise that we don't have the players (and won't have for 3, 4, 5 years) and we keep changing coachs, we'll just keep going backwards. Some people need a complete reality check, if anything we are continuing to punch slightly above our weigh.

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Christ, if I had a pound for every time the Tartanista's come out with the 'who will replace Vogts' line, I'd be a millionaire.

The point is being missed totally. Vogts can be replaced ; we all can. The hardest decision for Taylor - a man incidentally who has led the SFA quite disgracefully - will be to actually pull the trigger and fire Vogts.

He's hamstrung by the money he's shelled out for the wee German and to fire him now wouold be admission of defeat. But, that said, Berti has to go.

It's obvious to anyone who has any football intelligence that he is not a coach of any standing and his continuing experimentation is very damaging.

Defending his record and his methods are no longer an option. He must be sacked ; now. The cost of paying up his remaining time on the contract will be worth it.

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Ok, I don't know if this has been mentioned but a couple of points...

1) the game was a friendly - vogts has notoriously bad results in friendlies.

2) Wales always do better at the Millenium stadium, remember they have beaten teams like Italy there but lost miserably to them away from there.

3) Wales were out to prove a point after having their appeal rejected against their Euro Champions request after the Russian boy failed the drugs test

4) Earnshaw was told by Hughes that this was his one big chance to prove a point with Bellamy and Hartson out.

5) Parry was out to quash the questioning about his involvement in the squad after only a handful of games at Cardiff.

6) Paul Ritchie and Gary Caldwell were playing for the first time together and with Wilkie, Pressley and Webster out through injury there was no way to replace a pairing that just wasn't working.

My biggest gripe was that Vogts didn't change the system once the diamond formation wasn't working and Earnshaw was ripping the back 4 apart. In my opinion he should have altered it to a back 3 moving dailly into the center of defence, taking off Ritchie and Caldwell and bringing on McFadden and AN Other to build up the midfield, keeping Pearson and Fletcher on the wings. All good in hindsight of course, but just an opinion.

That said, I think the idea of sacking Vogts now smacks of niavety. He's signed the contract for the 5 years, let him do the job. We've seen the Scots can put it together with the victory over Holland and a credible draw with Germany.

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Guest dirtybasturk

I worry about the young players. When are Mcfadden, Fletcher, Gallagher or Pearson going to say "Life's too short" and chuck it. It would be depressing if any of them quit Scotland, but to be honest given Von fud's mismanagement I couldn't blame them.

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That said, I think the idea of sacking Vogts now smacks of niavety. He's signed the contract for the 5 years, let him do the job. We've seen the Scots can put it together with the victory over Holland and a credible draw with Germany.

You've been listening too much to Chick Young mate!

But byour observations, in line with the majority of most, confirm that McVogts does not have a clue.

We've not progressed under his 'reign'. Not a bit of it.

And c'mon, highlighting two credible performances out of umpteen further emphasises the lack of progress.

Get a grip.

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You've been listening too much to Chick Young mate!

Pfft! Chick Young can kiss my ass... he proclaims to be a St.Mirren fan, yet has shown bias towards the **** and has hardly been proactive about the situation that 1st Div clubs are in.

Let's just say that we disagree on this, as I feel he should be given the time (and I am not going to trot out the old cliche that it took Ferguson time to mould the Man U side). All I can say is that if you give a man a contract you have an obligation to honour it.

I wasn't overly happy when Vogts was chosen but if that is the choice of the people who (1) know more than me about the whole situation and (2) are the ones making the decisions, then I will go with that.

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Let's just say that we disagree on this, as I feel he should be given the time (and I am not going to trot out the old cliche that it took Ferguson time to mould the Man U side). All I can say is that if you give a man a contract you have an obligation to honour it.

I wasn't overly happy when Vogts was chosen but if that is the choice of the people who (1) know more than me about the whole situation and (2) are the ones making the decisions, then I will go with that.

'People who know more' than you? Eh? That would be who exactly?

David Taylor? Your havin' a laff, right?

I've a contract with my present employer. If I don't perform to accepted standards, I'm oot the door! Harsh, but that's the way it is.

Berti has not met any major milestones in his Scottish career. None.

And, worse, he won't achieve anything at all.

He's a dud and should be bulleted.

The press know it and the players also know it.

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I worry about the young players. When are Mcfadden, Fletcher, Gallagher or Pearson going to say "Life's too short" and chuck it. It would be depressing if any of them quit Scotland, but to be honest given Von fud's mismanagement I couldn't blame them.

You're a disgrace to the country if you seriously think that a few bad results would cause these guys to chuck international football. If you want to see a team that wins most of the time go and watch England...personally, I will always be proud to be Scottish and will always stick by the team, just like Faddy, Fletcher and the rest will. Going off in the huff isn't going to solve anything, sacking Berti would be incredibly naive and would disrupt our progression even more.

So what if we lose a friendly? Yeah I care, it's a bit embarrasing, but if it means we are better prepared for the World Cup Qualifiers, which I think we are after the game, then fair enough.

Why can't people see our players are either not good enough or too inexperienced? Changing the manager is not going to make a blind bit of difference. If you don't like what you see, don't watch and don't pester those of us proud to be Scottish with your inaine ramblings.

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'People who know more' than you? Eh? That would be who exactly?

David Taylor? Your havin' a laff, right?

I've a contract with my present employer. If I don't perform to accepted standards, I'm oot the door! Harsh, but that's the way it is.

Berti has not met any major milestones in his Scottish career. None.

And, worse, he won't achieve anything at all.

He's a dud and should be bulleted.

The press know it and the players also know it.

The Scottish football team is fu<ked permanently if this is going to be the attitude of it's alleged "supporters". We'll end up keep changing the manager every 2 years, disrupting everything and end up like Nothern Ireland. Get a reality check mate.

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Guest dirtybasturk

You're a disgrace to the country if you seriously think that a few bad results would cause these guys to chuck international football. If you want to see a team that wins most of the time go and watch England...personally, I will always be proud to be Scottish and will always stick by the team, just like Faddy, Fletcher and the rest will. Going off in the huff isn't going to solve anything, sacking Berti would be incredibly naive and would disrupt our progression even more.

So what if we lose a friendly? Yeah I care, it's a bit embarrasing, but if it means we are better prepared for the World Cup Qualifiers, which I think we are after the game, then fair enough.

Why does that make me a disgrace? You may have noticed but since Berti took charge a whole line of players HAVE quit. Matteo, Weir, Telfer & Burley and there could well be others.

I didn't say I would quit or that I'm going to stop supporting Scotland so I really don't get your point.

Why can't people see our players are either not good enough or too inexperienced? Changing the manager is not going to make a blind bit of difference. If you don't like what you see, don't watch and don't pester those of us proud to be Scottish with your inaine ramblings.

Our players aren't good enough? Wales had a 35 year old reserve goalkeeper and a back 4 entirely made up of Nationwide players. They brought on a sub who 6 weeks ago was playing for Hereford in the Conference and he set up the 3rd goal. Gareth Taylor is a journeyman no better than Paul Dickov but he ripped our defence apart. (all of our defenders have played in the Premiership or the CL or both).

Giggs was a class apart but even he went off at half time.

A good coach with the respect of the players would be able to organise our team better. Our players may not be world beaters but they are professionals playing to a reasonable standard and we should expect better than we got last night (and for the last 18 months).

At the very least Walter Smith/George Graham/Gordon Strachan (take your pick) would play players in correct positions. We ended last night with a 6-0-4 formation. Totally inept.

You really are a fud if you think being a true supporter means you can never criticise the team.

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