Rugby Union

[Guest Bob Mahelp]

Anyone try to get World Cup tickets today ?

Sat in the queue for 4 hours, then when I get in and choose a Scotland game pack, nothing goes into your shopping basket. Sat here refreshing for an hour, before the site eventually tells me that all categotries are sold out. 

Complete shambles. what was the feckin point ?

[Mark Connolly]

1 hour ago, Bob Mahelp said:

Anyone try to get World Cup tickets today ?

Sat in the queue for 4 hours, then when I get in and choose a Scotland game pack, nothing goes into your shopping basket. Sat here refreshing for an hour, before the site eventually tells me that all categotries are sold out. 

Complete shambles. what was the feckin point ?

The Irish and Welsh fans will have got your tickets due to their mindset.

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

1 hour ago, Mark Connolly said:

The Irish and Welsh fans will have got your tickets due to their mindset.

They are laughing at him thinking he can buy tickets to the World Cup

[Dunning1874]

You can debate the relative merits of Scotland's players v Ireland & Wales, to what the extent the relative lack of depth makes things more challenging and to what extent the weak, losing, self-pitying, self-destructive mentality is down to the players themselves rather than the coaching. What you can't debate is that Townsend has the best group of players a Scotland coach has had to work with in 20 years.

In Vern Cotter's last 6N in charge we had three wins and two defeats - home wins v Italy, Ireland and Wales, a 6 point loss in Paris and an absolutely disastrous thumping at Twickenham. You can debate whether three wins is just the absolute ceiling for Scotland with the players at our disposal, but Townsend has never bettered this.

In terms of progress we are less likely to collapse away from home than we were, we can actually win away on occasion and Townsend clearly has Eddie Jones on toast with an excellent record v England. Results at Twickenham aren't something to be downplayed and this is hugely impressive.

Five games v Wales, four defeats. Under Cotter we'd lost twice in three, with the defeats being by three and four points having had a decade of hammerings from them previously. Townsend took over and we were back to being thumped by them initially - getting back to defeats within a score rather than capitulations like 2018 isn't progress, it's just reversing to where Cotter had us. Winning in Cardiff was a big result but this year's tournament shows it was another footnote rather than something we're actually going to build on.

Six games v Ireland, six defeats. Final result within a score twice. It's not just going backwards from Cotter, it's worse than Robinson and Hadden.

Those Ireland games include a total capitulation as he presided over our worst ever World Cup. He survived that abject humiliation, with the argument that progress was being made based on the idea that we'd toughened up and become more streetwise in the aftermath of that tournament - more structure, less throwing the ball around, this is why we were now only losing games by 7 points or fewer and we were nearly there. This though isn't progress or an improvement on where we were pre-Townsend, it's only taking us back to where we were under Cotter.

Of course we get individual great performances like Twickenham which Cotter showed no indication of achieving, but then we follow it up with self-destruction v Wales and our worst performance since the World Cup v Ireland.

There's no sign of lasting progress here and there's no way we get out of a World Cup group containing Ireland in two years with him in charge. Persisting with Townsend now amounts to writing off the next two and a half years.

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

26 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

You can debate the relative merits of Scotland's players v Ireland & Wales, to what the extent the relative lack of depth makes things more challenging and to what extent the weak, losing, self-pitying, self-destructive mentality is down to the players themselves rather than the coaching. What you can't debate is that Townsend has the best group of players a Scotland coach has had to work with in 20 years.

In Vern Cotter's last 6N in charge we had three wins and two defeats - home wins v Italy, Ireland and Wales, a 6 point loss in Paris and an absolutely disastrous thumping at Twickenham. You can debate whether three wins is just the absolute ceiling for Scotland with the players at our disposal, but Townsend has never bettered this.

In terms of progress we are less likely to collapse away from home than we were, we can actually win away on occasion and Townsend clearly has Eddie Jones on toast with an excellent record v England. Results at Twickenham aren't something to be downplayed and this is hugely impressive.

Five games v Wales, four defeats. Under Cotter we'd lost twice in three, with the defeats being by three and four points having had a decade of hammerings from them previously. Townsend took over and we were back to being thumped by them initially - getting back to defeats within a score rather than capitulations like 2018 isn't progress, it's just reversing to where Cotter had us. Winning in Cardiff was a big result but this year's tournament shows it was another footnote rather than something we're actually going to build on.

Six games v Ireland, six defeats. Final result within a score twice. It's not just going backwards from Cotter, it's worse than Robinson and Hadden.

Those Ireland games include a total capitulation as he presided over our worst ever World Cup. He survived that abject humiliation, with the argument that progress was being made based on the idea that we'd toughened up and become more streetwise in the aftermath of that tournament - more structure, less throwing the ball around, this is why we were now only losing games by 7 points or fewer and we were nearly there. This though isn't progress or an improvement on where we were pre-Townsend, it's only taking us back to where we were under Cotter.

Of course we get individual great performances like Twickenham which Cotter showed no indication of achieving, but then we follow it up with self-destruction v Wales and our worst performance since the World Cup v Ireland.

There's no sign of lasting progress here and there's no way we get out of a World Cup group containing Ireland in two years with him in charge. Persisting with Townsend now amounts to writing off the next two and a half years.

Alarm bells should have been ringing when he effectively chucked the whole style of play in the bin months before a World Cup. Ok the "fastest rugby in the world" had some clear deficiencies but it's better than what we got, a confused team who clearly weren't comfortable with what they were being asked to do. 

The early form of his time in charge though meant he had credit in the bank. When De Villiers and Tandy came in and improved their areas of the game I was hopeful again, but we're not progressing past where we were last year and the defence has slipped again in the last few games. We've already conceded more tries with 2 games to go than we conceded in total last year. 

We don't seem to be building to anything in particular, and we regularly look less prepared for specific games than our opposition. O'Connell getting all the plaudits for the lineout work, we looked like we had no ideas. That's literally a difference in coaching and analysis that screwed the game for us, before we get into the air or the breakdown.

Absolutely understand and agree that we don't have the same player pool as Ireland or Wales. Doesn't mean that Townsend is getting, or shows signs of getting, the best out of this group. I'd be interested to hear why folk think he is, what are they seeing that we're not? 

 

[honestly united]

7 minutes ago, Genuine Hibs Fan said:

Alarm bells should have been ringing when he effectively chucked the whole style of play in the bin months before a World Cup. Ok the "fastest rugby in the world" had some clear deficiencies but it's better than what we got, a confused team who clearly weren't comfortable with what they were being asked to do. 

The early form of his time in charge though meant he had credit in the bank. When De Villiers and Tandy came in and improved their areas of the game I was hopeful again, but we're not progressing past where we were last year and the defence has slipped again in the last few games. We've already conceded more tries with 2 games to go than we conceded in total last year. 

We don't seem to be building to anything in particular, and we regularly look less prepared for specific games than our opposition. O'Connell getting all the plaudits for the lineout work, we looked like we had no ideas. That's literally a difference in coaching and analysis that screwed the game for us, before we get into the air or the breakdown.

Absolutely understand and agree that we don't have the same player pool as Ireland or Wales. Doesn't mean that Townsend is getting, or shows signs of getting, the best out of this group. I'd be interested to hear why folk think he is, what are they seeing that we're not? 

 

I think the draw at Twickenham sums up both Townsends coaching and the players. Periods of being dreadful, followed by periods of utter brilliance, but finished off by ultimately not getting the wins required.

I see the Welsh players have come out and said they are glad Pivac has stuck by his game plan as its now come good and they are one game away from a Grand Slam after being written off in the Autumn. When you look at Scotland, we were solid last year, defensively sound, just not scoring enough, we were a few tweaks away from being in contention. We won away at Wales, France and Ireland in the Autumn wsan't great but we were without Russell and Hasting at 10. You then get a performance like England which is the stuff of dreams. Dominating up  front, and looking more dangerous in attack. But its been downhill since then, England being fairly dreadful probably takes some sheen off the performance but we would have beaten Wales bar the sending off / indiscipline which you cant blame the coaching for that. Against Ireland I dont think we even had any systems, it looked like 15 guys out for a run about having never met before, yet still came within 3 minutes of getting something out the game. It was flashes of excellent play, with large amounts of being bettered by a not very good Irish team.

Some of the blame has to lie with Townsend for changing the systems and styles of play so often that the players dont have a settled systems to play, was the fastest rugby in the world the correct choice, we will never know - it was good to watch and fitted the players we had, would the more pragmatic approach eventually come good, we will never know. It just looks like we are in a bit of limbo inbetween at the moment and the players are not sure what they are meant to be doing.

[GAD]

CJ Stander has retired! That's a Lion's place up for grabs.

[John Lambies Doos]

We are two years away from a WC, Townsend needs to step down now. He's a good guy but failed as Scotland coach. We need someone who gets the best out of the players both in ability and mindset; and this unfortunately is not GT.

[honestly united]

28 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said:

We are two years away from a WC, Townsend needs to step down now. He's a good guy but failed as Scotland coach. We need someone who gets the best out of the players both in ability and mindset; and this unfortunately is not GT.

I'll go with the standard response to whenever someone calls for the managers head in who do you think we could get in to do a better job? Being an Ayr fan sometimes the relief of removing an underperforming manager is soured by the reality of the shortlist to replace them!

I wouldn't want either Cockerill or Wilson anywhere near the job, although im sure there are a few NZ / Aussie / SA's that would do a decent job, i've not been close enough to SH rugby to know if there are any standout candidates, there doesn't seem to be anyone that sticks out. Baxter is probably the standout coach in england, but should be next in line after Eddie leaves.

[John Lambies Doos]

I'll go with the standard response to whenever someone calls for the managers head in who do you think we could get in to do a better job? Being an Ayr fan sometimes the relief of removing an underperforming manager is soured by the reality of the shortlist to replace them!
I wouldn't want either Cockerill or Wilson anywhere near the job, although im sure there are a few NZ / Aussie / SA's that would do a decent job, i've not been close enough to SH rugby to know if there are any standout candidates, there doesn't seem to be anyone that sticks out. Baxter is probably the standout coach in england, but should be next in line after Eddie leaves.

Gatland would do a better job, but I'm sure he's not interested. He had a disaster at Super 14 but he's a great NH style coach. He would make them more stubborn, resilient and believe in themselves. We don't have bad players, we just lack emotional control

[come on shire]

A bit of the problem involves the country not being "angry" enough after poor campaigns. The same could be said of Scotland's football team. 

The only journalist who gives Scotland a kicking after the mediocrity is Tom English. When England got put out their own WC in 2015 the journalists gave them a kicking. When your nation expects better it gets your head out the clouds. 

However, this is the best forum for discussing honest frustration. On the Scottish Rugby forum on FB, after another defeat there's too many fans happy to "focus on the positives", let us know "we're almost there as the scores are always close now" and "be positive". If you moan about form and coaching etc you just get a row... 

[ajwffc]

10 hours ago, GAD said:

CJ Stander has retired! That's a Lion's place up for grabs.

and has pissed of the Irish by saying he is moving home to SA

[hearthammer]

That's it started with the push for all Are Boys to be in the Lions starting line up

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-9374271/Ireland-vs-England-throws-subplot-Johnny-Sexton-vs-George-Ford-Lions-battle-No-10.html

Finn Russell is being effectively classed as second rate by this shower.  More to come as the tour, wherever it ends up, gets closer.

[John Lambies Doos]

That's it started with the push for all Are Boys to be in the Lions starting line up
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-9374271/Ireland-vs-England-throws-subplot-Johnny-Sexton-vs-George-Ford-Lions-battle-No-10.html
Finn Russell is being effectively classed as second rate by this shower.  More to come as the tour, wherever it ends up, gets closer.

Not sure there is much of an argument tbh. Russell has shown nothing in 6 nations to have him starting for Lions (especially a Gatland Lions Team). Only criticism is that there is an obvious slight in back row where I'd have Watson. But ultimately we really don't deserve much Lions representation.

[Savage Henry]

2 hours ago, hearthammer said:

That's it started with the push for all Are Boys to be in the Lions starting line up

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-9374271/Ireland-vs-England-throws-subplot-Johnny-Sexton-vs-George-Ford-Lions-battle-No-10.html

Finn Russell is being effectively classed as second rate by this shower.  More to come as the tour, wherever it ends up, gets closer.

I don’t think Russell is, on current form, a better selection than either of those players.  Certainly not for a Gatlandball team.  And he was absolutely dreadful against Ireland.  Crappy timing, granted, but he needed to step up and ended up looking headless.

Edit: that being said, I’d watch Russell play at 10 every day of the week ahead of either of those other two if it meant not watching Warren Gatland’s team.  Pragmatic is one thing.  Mind achingly one dimensional is quite another.   Townsend’s team is most definitely Townsend’s team, for good or for ill.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Savage Henry

[honestly united]

51 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said:

2 hours ago, hearthammer said:

That's it started with the push for all Are Boys to be in the Lions starting line up
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-9374271/Ireland-vs-England-throws-subplot-Johnny-Sexton-vs-George-Ford-Lions-battle-No-10.html
Finn Russell is being effectively classed as second rate by this shower.  More to come as the tour, wherever it ends up, gets closer.

Not sure there is much of an argument tbh. Russell has shown nothing in 6 nations to have him starting for Lions (especially a Gatland Lions Team). Only criticism is that there is an obvious slight in back row where I'd have Watson. But ultimately we really don't deserve much Lions representation.

After our win at Twickenham, and also after the Wales game, he was down as nailed down starter for the Lions by all the pundits. I think he will go, but wont start as Gatland will want someone to kick to the corners etc.

For me Hogg, Russell and Watson are already on the plane.

Potentials are Grey (if Exeter do well he's in with a shout), Zander would be but his red has dented his chances, Ritchie and Maitland / Duhan.

The players are lucky that the France game has been moved back as it gives them a last chance to shine while the rest are not playing. If we can get a win in Paris (where we would finish 2nd in the 6 Nations) would probably be enough to give some of the others a chance at getting on the plane.

 

[Snobot]

I personally couldn’t give a f**k about the Lions but Finn Russell seems to be judged against completely different standards to anyone else playing 10. All Sexton did was blooter the ball up in the air for 80 mins behind a dominant pack. He also missed a penalty to touch at the end of the first half and a reasonably easy conversion but the entire narrative is that he schooled Russell, on the basis that FR missed a penalty kick and a touch kick, ignoring the fact he was camped in his own half for most of the 1st half with pretty much no decent 1st phase ball behind a pack that was getting it tight.

Predictably Tom English pushed this line but quite a few folk on his Twitter thread calling him out on it. The problems v Ireland weren’t Finn Russell, who was pretty average  for the part of the game he actually played.

 

[GAD]

Talking of 10's, strong rumour going round that Hogg will start there this weekend...

[GAD]

And there he is! Price, Turner and Harris all dropped as well. Very attacking team, obviously wants to make a statement after the two losses.

[Savage Henry]

1 hour ago, GAD said:

And there he is! Price, Turner and Harris all dropped as well. Very attacking team, obviously wants to make a statement after the two losses.

Looks like they’re going to chuck it about all over the shop... which will either result in a 50 point win or an Italy win and knock ons left, right and centre.

Don’t think the loss of Russell should really necessitate a switch of Hogg, but desperate times, I guess.