Ivo den Bieman

It's documented that Ballantyne took no part in the discussion or decision making process whatever as he had a conflict of interest. Not sure why people keep banging on about this- Ballantyne took no part in it.

Press conference could also be to indicate that they are fighting on, will appeal etc etc....

Posters on the 8,400 post strong "Livingston-All Threads Merged" thread today reacted with dismay when the thread was relegated without warning to the third division by the Pie & Bovril management committee. "We feel that, having bored the first division forum for the whole of last season, explained P&B Secretary Div, "that relegation to the third division gives this thread the best possible hope of survival on P&B". However, a wide range of posters queued up to lament the almost inevitable extinction of the thread. "This is the death knell of the thread" complained KingfaetheSooth, who vowed to set up a Thread Trust in oder to ensure fair governance and a voice for all, with the thread finding its own level in future years. Meanwhile, the interested SkylineDrifter-qos75-Yoss consortium was urgently seeking a meeting with the authorities, to establish a new location for their nuanced observations on league management. "It's going to be very difficult" posted a tight lipped Yoss after crunch four hour crisis talks in an internet cafe in Kirkcaldy. There are real fears that the collapse of the thread will have knock on effects in the local economy, with internet cafes across the country reporting a 448% drop in revenue in real terms, pointing to serried ranks of empty chairs previously occupied with Champions-League standard procrastinating fans. Virgin media bosses warned of the likelihood of administration after seeing a 2.7 GB-per-user-drop in bandwidth consumption in the last 24 hours. Most damningly, posters across Scotland now face the ghastly prospect of actually having to do some work. As activity drained from the thread, with poster after poster leaving with a bitter "ah'm no slummin it doon here" valediction, at the eleventh hour, a cigar smoking Stadio delle Almondvale arrived to announce that he was here to save the thread, and that he was ready to write 60,000 posts immediately, in order to ensure its short term survival. He was last seen being pursued by an angry mob from the internet, however, whilst the discussion sank to the humiliating oblivion of page four on the third division forum, falling below little visited titles such as Update on Chris Jardine's toenail fungus, Berwick's new fourth change strip available to pre-order online, and the Prohibition of Promotion for Montrose Football Club (Scotland) Act 1996 .

yes, well, as I said, that was without thinking of the cost implication.

one of the reasons Kim Jong Il met Clinton yesterday was to ensure that he got a visa for the UK, allowing him to buy a season ticket, pay off the creditors and have Almodnvale re-named "The Kim-Jong-Il Dear Leader Juche Thought Workers' Stadium"

okay- fair enough- I don't agree that a football Stasi should be set up whereby a club is thrown out the league for defaulting on a hire purchase agreement for a sit-on lawnmower. I take on board what you have said about cost. I think annual audited accounts is the way to go. yes, expensive, but the chaos surrounding Livingston and their very late relegation is going to be costly in other ways, too. And, unless something is done about it, with the economy in its present state, this kind of thing is going to keep happening. When I grew up watching the game Third Lanark were the last team to go bust and back then people thought it would never happen again to another club. That's four clubs gone down the toilet since 2002 for different reasons. perhaops its time to introduce a set of regulations so we all know what exactly is going to happen when the next "Livi" comes along- and also a system whereby clubs can be helped when they are in financial difficulty.

again- who is suggesting that? the system is very simple. Clubs must submit accounts on a six monthly basis for inspection. Clubs which fail to do that will face severe sanctions, also in the case of any kind of insolvency, or default on player or non-playing staff wages. I agree that the horse has bolted re: Livingston but I don't see what the great harm is in discussing how situations like these can be better managed, so that a "Livi" situation doesn't play out again in the way the last week or so has.

again- who is suggesting that such a system, if initiated under the auspices of *either* the SFA or SFL, would work like that? In your desperation to paint the SFL in the best possible light you are reducing other people's arguments to absurdities. Anyone can do reductio ad absurdum- it's dead easy- but it doesn't really get your argument any further forward.

Is it such a ludicrous notion that they might employ some staff competent to look at these books when they are submitted?

So, he's a "fucking liar" then, yes? Until about 5pm yesterday the opponents were Livingston, he'd have heard nothing to tell them any different, especially after the outcome of the meeting the previous week. It seems to me that he's far more worried about loss of hospitality revenue, anyway, and that's likely to be a far more significant sum for the club.

totally agree with that. Knowing the SFL, they'll probably respond to the clamour for sensible rule changes by changing a semi colon to a comma in a paragraph no one cares about anyway, and unveil it as a "radical new blueprint for the twenty first century".

Have you considered the possibility that the programmes are printed to tight deadlines and are likely to have been ordered on Tuesday or thereabouts, long before the SFL's decision? I know Montrose's programme deadlines are something of that order. Still, carry on calling people "fucking liars" if it makes you feel any better. in any case, he's talking about hospitality here- hospitality which would have been booked on the premise of a first division game taking place against either "Livi" or Airdrie United. So why you're bumping your gums about programmes is anyone's guess. Assuming prgrammes were printed, the chairman has a load of useless Livingston prgrammes heading straight to the recycling facility.

Anyway, the SFL are meeting (again) this afternoon to discuss Saturday's fixtures. Ross County have threatened to sue for compensation if Saturday's fixtures are called off. Livingston have said nothing yet but I don't think MacDougall in particular will walk away quietly. Ross County set to demand compensation

Well, I don't agree. technically yes you are right with the SFA / SFL distinction but that would have been enough for me if I were a member of the SFL to intervene at that point. I suspect we're just not going to agree on this one though. There was nothing in the rules, either, to stop the SFL and the SFA working together to probe Livingston's accounts and put Massone under pressure- that they chose not to do so has led directly to today's situation. I can't really see what dangerous precedent is being set. Submit your accounts in time and nothing happens. It's not hard.

I've absolutely no idea why he's become so obsessed with Livingston in the last month or so. I have the feeling he'll cling on and try and run the club in the third division just to stick the blazers one in the eye.

Yes, I can. A club which lives within tis means and can be relied on to fulfil its fixtures. a second team for the Aberdeen area playing in a new purpose built stadium which is currently being planned. a club committed to playing tis way through the leagues within the rules. can you suggest why they wouldn't be decent members of the league? Is it just because you think they're a diddy team compared to the mighty "Livi"?

I can't find a link to it, no, but Massone failed to submit annual accounts to the SFL and the club was fined £5000 suspended until September, at the end of 2008-9. It happened at the same meeting that the SFL fell for his blandishments about the club's future. I think Flash's post above answers all your other questions about the SFL "being unable" to take action unless a club is in administration. There was a lack of political will to tackle the problem in reasonable time. I would agree that the SFL were in a very tight spot, but stick to the view that they should have acted- and taken this decision- much sooner than they chose to. Edit- found a link- it's mentioned in this old Tit & Bum article. The club had to submit accounts to the SFA, not the SFL, and it was them who fined them. To what purpose, you'll have to write and ask the SFA, I can only assume it's something to do with club licensing. Fine for Failing to Submit Accounts

on the grounds that Livingston had been "on the point of bankruptcy" for a while, on the basis that the club were haemorrhaging money on court cases brought about by Massone's incompetence, on the basis that players and staff were going for months without pay, on the basis that Livingston failed to submit annual accounts as required on the deadline set. Your analogy about coming round my house hardly works- I'm not obliged to follow any rules as set out by you, however Livingston FC were obliged to follow the laws and reasonable requests of the SFL. Fair enough about keithgy, I guess time will tell.

Fair enough Skyline Drifter. I don't know "keithgy" but if he's not a wind up merchant then there may be truth in it- just don;t see how he could know for sure, even if he is a friend of one of the "triumvirate", as they don't appear to know themselves what the next move is. I don't agree with your point about the SFL. In my view they should have demanded sight of the accounts from Massone and a bond from him by a July 1 deadline, penalty for non compliance being the relegation that happened yesterday. That way we would all have known where we stood much earlier. Instead they believed his crap and hid away hoping that all this trouble would somehow disappear on the tip of a fairy's wand, which was never a bright strategy to take. Time for the "triumvirate" to put up or shut up. If they really were in it to save the club then there should be no problem with a Livingston side paying its way and living within its means in the Third, hoping to put together a successful team within a very tight budget like the rest of us. If this thread and Livi Lions is to be believed then the club will be able to count on a 600+ home support every week, which will put them at an advantage compared to all other clubs bar Annan who have that kind of regular following, too. If they walk away then the dark suspicions of some of the more cynical posters on this thread will have been vindicated. that said, if the new consortium's interests were merely about land and property, surely the league status of the football club is irrelevant? If this is true, then the only real blow to their hopes would have been league expulsion and reposession of Almondvale by WLC.

whoever claimed that yesterday was definitely jumping the gun. Apparently there is a player's meeting this morning and then a statement will be posted on the club website indicating what they plan to do next. FWIW I think "Livi" will get on with it and try and start the season in Div 3, if none of the triumvirate cut and run. An appeal will be costly and almost certainly doomed to fail.

I'm a type 1 diabetic and sometimes a Mars Bar is absolutely essential kit in order to avoid slipping into a coma during hypoglycaemia (which is the only thing likely to kill you in the short term). So, your analogy doesn't really work. More broadly, you seem to be chewing the carpet with rage at this, but your team is set to "Other". Who do you actually follow, or are you a generalist? I must admit to being absolutely gobsmacked at the decision but I welcome it. IOt shows that corrupt behind the scenes practices won't be tolerated, such as Livingston's oft-documented practice of spending money they didn;t have and then entering an insolvency process to avoid paying it back. It's not a pretty situation, however, and the SFL must take the blame for a summer's worth of dithering over the issue, for that. Even to have made this ruling last week- when it was perfectly within their right to do so- would have been better than this. I will be absolutely *fascinated* to see what the triumvirate's response is. They will be coddled in a meeting at present establishing two things; 1. does an appeal stand any chance of success (the answer, legally, is no) and 2. can the club feasibly be run at third division level- the answer is probably yes, given wages of £20 a week, voluntary backroom/office staff, and a complete re calibration of the relationship with the community. As others have pointed out, both here and in the third division forum, if they are really in it to save the club, then starting again in the third division shouldn't be a problem. If, as others suspect, the aim all along was to make a quick buck and leave this perennially insolvent franchise high and dry, they will indeed cut their respective losses and Livingston will shortly be joining the list of defunct Scottish clubs. I agree with Edinburgh Livi on one thing- the dancing shoes merchants are still far too premature. This has a bit more mileage in it yet.

Well lunch will just about be finished by now, cigars will have been stubbed out/stuck behind the ear for later, so the wise men will now, having suitably loosened their belts a notch, sat down to grasp the nettle at hand. This will take the form of an ill-tempered ninety minute debate concerning a rumour of dandelions growing in the penalty box at Shielfield Park, and whether a penalty should be levied as a result. After that, Jim Leishman will read out some bad poetry, that he's written specially for the occasion, whilst every one else looks at their watch, and nothing will be done about Livingston, as it's already a bitty tight for the 1842 from Queen Street for a few of the blazers to be back home in time for the evening's bowls on the telly.