Ivo den Bieman

It looks like a small huddle of Plymouth diehards in the enclosure, and absolutely no one else paying to get in!

how much longer can this be spun out? just get them to f**k and be done with it

The timing/timetabling of the league season is a matter of complete indifference to the Court of Session. They'll only be interested in whether Livingston should be put into administration, or liquidated forthwith. The SFL statement should be an interesting one tomorrow!

who knows what the SFL might do. If it's administration, a hefty points deduction could happen, with immediate relegation to the third division being another, slightly fainter, possibility. That said the SFL will probably make demands that Livi guarantee to fulfil their fixtures this season and I very much doubt any administrator will make that guarantee. In that scenario, Mr. Administrator could resign the club from the league as happened with the old Gretna. In the event of admin though there will be an offer from Rankine on the table (250k.) and an unspecified offer from MacDougall, assuming he is still interested. But creditors stung twice are unlikely to look kindly on yet another CVA agreement. It looks extremely bleak for "Livi" surviving but as I've said already they really do have the luck of the devil in these situations, so who knows.

Well certainly by Tuesday the court's determination as to what's going to happen to the club will be know, and the SFL will act accordingly. If it's admin (50-50 at best it would seem as the club have next to nothing to administer other than a squad of footballers of varying quality and a league membership) the the game goes ahead, if it;s liquidation then Livingston's last game will be Monday night- they cease to exist and must stop trading as soon as the liquidation order is made. Either way Massone is finished.

How do you separate the "fans" of a club from its "owners"? It's impossible to do I'd suggest. By continuing to support the club with money and time, harsher critics would argue that the fans are complicit in the club's shadier dealings over the years, even if they are not directly responsible for them. Now from postings on here people like you, jimbo and others seem decent enough, and I do feel sorry for what you are going through at the moment, but you being upset by the goings on at Almondvale isn't a good enough reason to keep a thoroughly rotten club in business, and in the league, I'm afraid. particularly when the Trust grouping- normally a group I'd look to for the views of the authentic, committed, diehard fan- seem willing to throw in their lot with a character like Neil Rankine, provided he mouths the correct platitudes about community ownership at the appropriate time.

to be fair to him, what other conclusion is possible to draw? still you've had more escapes than a silent movie heroine tied to a railway track, this has a long way to run yet.

Yepo nothing at all on the usual radio/tv/internet sources. Guess this will drag on into next week, and doubtless several final deadlines/last minute crisis talks/pleas for investment/drinks at the very last chance saloon to go yet. The only certain thing is the SFL's continuing silence.

I wonder how much of his award he'll end up seeing?

don't forget we might not hear anything on this until early next week, owing to legal wrangling/paperwork screw up, etc. I imagine Massone is paying the electricity bill (if he actually intends to do so rather than just talking about it) to make things look maybe a bit better for the club in court. "Look, we payed off Scottish Power, all we need is a bit more time and we'll pay off the rest...."

sorry that last post came across as a bit nippy and I didn't intend that- it's just that people have peddled the line that HMRC are being softer on football clubs before, and its misleading. anyway, no one knows how much *exactly* Livi owe HMRC but its a six figure sum. Someone put it about that half the Griffiths transfer money was paid to them to keep them sweet for the time being, but this was later denied (by HMRC if I remember rightly, it was in that article in the Herald). HMRC, as they always do until their pursuit of monies reaches court, refuse to comment on individual cases. I didn't know that Yoss about CVAs and the HMRC, but the point stands that HMRC will force companies, football or otherwise, into liquidation without compunction if the debts are starting to get too big. Accrington weren't in administration when HMRC nearly had them closed down at the beginning of the summer.

This is simply not true, as was explained a while back on the thread by someone else. Accrington Stanley, who owe £300k, were only saved by a substantial up front payment plus agreeing to a stringent repayment of the remaining debt, and were only allowed to do this because it was the first time it had happened to the re-formed club, and HMRC was convinced of their sincerity in repaying the debt owed. Had they hemmed and hawed or told lies, serially, like Massone, they wouldn't exist by now. Since then HMRC have pursued at least two other English clubs that I can think of with great vigour, and those proceedings are ongoing. A couple of non league clubs further down the pyramid have folded and HMRC is almost always on the death certificate as one of the causes.

You'd have thought that with such a high profile case, with a great deal riding on it, that even lawyers as mediocre as council lawyers would get the paperwork right. Belief-defying incompetence to be honest. So looks like Livingston will stumble on for another week, and another week of fact free speculation on here.

A re-formed "new" Livingston under fan or community ownership would certainly have my support, but after that I part company with you Tonsilitis- they'd have to take their chances alongside other applicants for a vacant league place and if another's sides application was better then they shouldn't be voted in purely on who they used to be (especially in the case of Livingston Mark One). Of course the whole election process is archaic and absurd, and a pyramid system is definitely needed. I imagine the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will be solved before we get a pyramid system in Scottish football, though.

They will, because they will deem the consequences of their withdrawal/expulsion at this late stage to be worse than allowing them to hirple on on life support for the season. The SFL will also reason that another season will give Livi time to sort all these problems out. If the worst does come to the worst and they are liquidated, the SFL will then be able to shrug their shoulders, expunge the record and say "we gave them every chance" whilst neatly sidestepping their share of the blame in this whole fiasco.

I'd expect Wednesday's deadline to pass without much of note being said. All the council's action is is an irritancy of the current lease, which Massone can contest and spin out for months on end. I'd look out for a deal being done by the end of the week to ensure their "senior football priority" is met. They don't have the balls to do what they should do- liquidate the club and start again in the EOS under Trust/community ownership, in order to begin building a credible campaign for the re-born AFC Livingston Whatever to take the place of the old club in Div 3 for 2010-11. E2A- as to the SFL, they probably won't do anything until the following week, once the outcome of WLC vs. Massone is a little clearer. With the club struggling to have a home ground for the start of the season, and with several current and former playing and coaching staff still awaiting settlement of monies owing to them, there is a clear case for the club to be immediately relegated to Div 3 as were the old Gretna last season. In that scenario I suspect Massone and Rankine's carpetbaggers will likely walk away, leaving the way open for a McDougall takeover. Only a real football man like McDougall would take over a third divison club in the current financial climate. Don't hold your breath for any of that happening though.

Chris Innes is alleged not to have been paid whilst all the other first teamers were.

Phil Cave has signed for conference club Gateshead.

I'm convinced that after the last day's posts on here that nothing will happen and Livi will get through this. They benefit from a council not willing to close the club down, indeed willing to do almost anything to keep the name of Livingston on the pools coupon, and a football regulating authority lacking the will and the resources to do anything about it. A football authority which energetically pursues the likes of Brechin City for an alleged breach of a frankly irrelevant UEFA licensing directive, and looks the other way when a club runs up debts to can't afford and then expects others to pick up the tab. So a small club turning a small profit is clobbered by the SFL, having lived within ts means throughout its existence (and payed the price of decades of pretty unglamorous football in the nether regions of the domestic leagues, at least until the mid 80s), and a small club which ignores economic reality and continues to harbour an absolutely false self image as an SPL club in waiting, is left to f**k people over unhindered. Either way the creditors are shafted and, to be honest, if this shower of chancers are allowed to start the season in SFL1, so is the integrity of Scottish league competition. The only way of making recompense to the creditors, as DF suggests, is to get a system in place whereby historic debt is payed off. But how long does the wee painter and decorator have to wait for his four grand for painting the boardroom? Ten years? That's an eternity for someone struggling to keep a small business afloat on very tight margins. The whole thing is a standing disgrace and an absolute embarrassment to Scottish football.

Duncan's last post has it right- there's no substance behind this Council "action". They're taslking tough to appease angry ratepayers. A deal will be done in secret, and the council will appear to get their money repayed whilst securing their fucking "senior football" priority. Livingston survive. Again.

is this true? i thought it was reported at the time that it was a notice of intention to appoint an interim liquidator. If you're right, then Livingston will scrape through again for sure, with the creditors burned and the SFL doing nothing, and the council's "tough stance" being nothing more than hot air designed to placate angry ratepayers.

don't hold your breath on that one. The SFL are still hiding away in a darkened room, hoping that this somehow all goes away. one thing- if Livingston *start* the season then the whole situation becomes much more high profile- if you're going to close a club down best do it in the close season when no other party is involved. Once they start, this may strengthen the hands of those on the council who are half hearted at best at this liquidation action. The possible legal shilly-shallying that could still happen over the liquidation, outlined by Tonsilitis, means that although they are down on their luck at present, Massone and chums are far from finished- and neither is the club.

edited due to being a complete fuckwit

see, this is the kind of stuff, along with the views of John Murphy, that makes it seem as though Livingston will survive, despite everything off the pitch saying they shouldn't. A week is a long time for the Council's spine to melt, and they also will benefit from the SFL's desperation that they shouldn't go to the wall.

I wouldn't despair just yet, there's still a week to go and has has been shown countless times in the past Livingston have the luck of the devil in these situations. It looks grim on balance at the moment but it wouldn't surprise me to see Livingston emerge largely unscathed, by either the emergence of another sawdust Caesar, who hasn't yet shown his hand, or by "Livi-minded" councillors winning further time behind closed doors. I'm only going by what Tonsilitis has posted, as he is the expert, but the council's writ will result in liquidation if payment of the rent isn't made, as I understand it. If no money is forthcoming when the statutory notice period expires, an interim liquidator will be appointed and that's the end of the current club. The term "administration" is being peddled about by journalists who seem not to understand what they're talking about. Unless Massone does it himself, which given his MO of pig headedness, arrogance, deceit and general fantasism, isn't likely, then administration isn't going to happen. By the way, the Herald article suggested that the Inland Revenue had *not* received money from the Griffiths sale, and that the HMRC spokesman wouldn't be drawn on their approach to the club's difficulties. Scottish Power haven;t yet been paid either.