LongTimeLurker

^^^Just so nobody gets taken in by this, I did no such thing last year. I was one of the first people to post about the LL playoff rule and its implications and tried to explain it to Clydebank and Lochee United supporters when they were pushing the done deal narrative as I could see where things were heading. I also posted about how there was nothing in the SFA constitution about "board directives". If the LL splits or is split the LL playoff rule is probably no longer a factor so Option Z is not a rerun of what happened last year.

That's the plan with Option Z. HL fed by NCL, NRSJFA LL East fed by EoS, ERSJFA LL West fed by SoS, WRSJFA all the necessary changes for that to happen appear to be in motion.

Getting very petty now. I had already fixed the website story to the singular to try to avoid a post like this and the first part completely fails to address the point I made.

They had already indicated their interest in being a tier 6. It was the north region that needed to be persuaded by the SFA and the SJFA. The SJFA have a mandate from their membership to negotiate SJFA entry. The north region were always going to fall into line to make that possible if things got sorted in the south. If they are being pressured to be on board by next season it shows the powers that be at Hampden think a fully integrated pyramid is very close to happening now.

They do not appear to have been at the meeting and would have needed to be if this is being geared up for as soon as next season. It's Banks o'Dee and Culter that are relevant on this. The SFA came up with options for the PWG in which the ERSFA feeds into either the LL, the EoS premier or a new LL East. There was no mention of a subset of ERSJFA clubs feeding into the HL, and we are already seeing a BBC website story about the possibility of the HL:LL boundary being shifted.

It's not my posts you need to worry about, because my views don't matter in the big scheme of things. It's what Rod Petrie and the SFA are doing that matters and their actions are fully consistent with implementing Option Z ASAP. Over and out for a few hours.

You are splitting hairs with that. The boundary would need to be shifted before Option Z can work as a solution because part of it is that the ERSJFA becomes a feeder to LL East, so there's at least one reason why that issue has to be dealt with right now before Brechin City as a potential Club 42 gets taken into consideration as a second. Rod Petrie isn't doing it on a whim in the absence of a wider context.

They don't appear to have been at this meeting and only the NCL is being mentioned as an additional feeder to the HL. That snippet of info and the BBC website story about the move that is underway to get the HL:LL boundary shifted should tell you something.

The recent BBC website story about shifting the HL:LL boundary provides a glimmer of hope that it may soon be possible for all the remaining Tayside clubs to apply to the EoS even if SJFA entry doesn't happen through Option Z. Beyond that whether the SJFA or EoS are to blame is a bit like arguing over whether the chicken or the egg came first. The only thing that actually matters is that they have completely incompatable postures that cannot be reconciled, which means the SFA as the national association have to find a way to force/persuade one of them to do something they don't want to do, if there is going to be any progress. For the last 18 months or so the SFA's actions have been in line with the posture of the SJFA. Even after last year's fiasco they still haven't told the SJFA to drop the idea of entering the pyramid intact despite the north region clubs telling them they weren't interested in being a tier 6 league and even after the way that the east region stopped operating a single superleague this season. That suggests that the powers that be at Hampden want to force this through one way or another.

Last follow up for a while. As explained multiple times already I am not expressing support for Option Z, because beyond anything else what some random P&B poster thinks means diddlysquat in the big scheme of things. What's interesting in my opinion is why the people that actually matter would think it's a viable option worth pursuing despite the many issues you list and why the WRSJFA blazers would be steering their clubs in this direction in preference to the west juniors in first option that we were recently being told by posters on here with west region connections was what was going to happen. It's usually better not to ascribe motives, but a pet theory would be that if you are Rod Petrie and you have finally clambered your way up the greasy pole to be Big Brother Almighty of Scottish fitba so you can look foward to mingling with the likes of Pele and Michel Platini at FIFA and UEFA events in Geneva, it probably doesn't sit well having Gaz fae Denny from some tier 6 diddy league that you were barely even aware existed telling you what you can and can't do on junior entry to the pyramid and where league boundaries are...

You did not understand my reply and my understanding is that you are wrong about previously licensed clubs losing their voting rights. The new class of associate membership only applies to clubs that get licensed from the end of this season onwards. Everybody else is grandfathered in. The SPFL are already outnumbered in other words and the sky hasn't caved in for them because of it. What the SPFL clubs feared was a vast influx of many new members at tiers 6 and 7 given 130 junior clubs with enclosed grounds were suddenly on the verge of pyramid entry after the SJFA decided they wanted to join. Adding the foodlights requirement at very short notice was also part of heading off a sudden massive influx into full membership at the pass. In comparison to that, an extra tier 5 league may be viewed as manageable. For example, it could be viewed as part of providing a better crash landing zone for existing members from a League One and Two sort of perspective (Queen's Park vs Pollok is a probably a more appetising prospect than Queen's Park vs Vale of Leithen, for example), and as a recruiting ground for clubs that might help strengthen the quality in depth of the SPFL over the longer term when viewed from a Championship and Premiership sort of vantage point. The club that was on the verge of doing a "Kelty" two seasons ago was Clydebank. The vice-president of the SJFA is from that club so they will be very much in the loop on what is happening as will some of the other clubs that are most likely to want to jump to the pyramid pronto. As things stand the SJFA are still trying to get all three regions in and Option Z is being viewed as a viable vehicle for achieving that outcome. I doubt you'll see anyone doing a "Kelty" unless or until (we don't have long to find out which) there are crystal clear reasons to believe it isn't.

"LL east" and "LL west" could just as easily be placeholder names for two new fully separate tier 5 league setups, so don't agree with the first bit. The second bit is an interesting point to come out of this meeting though. I was very surprised that the WRSJFA blazers would be actively pushing an option that could for the sake of argument mean Auchinleck Talbot, Clydebank, Pollok, Cumnock, Irvine Meadow, Kilwinning Rangers, Largs Thistle, Kilbirnie, Beith and Hurlford leaving at the end of season 2020-21 to bring the numbers up to 16 for a new tier 5 professional game board level league that would fall outside the jurisdication of the SJFA. That's a shortcut to higher up the pyramid for whatever clubs would be involved on that, but would weaken the WRSJFA and by extension the "Holy Grail". Over and out for a few more hours.

EK vs BSC had a crowd of 671, while five miles away Hamilton Accies vs Edinburgh City had 1040. Think there needs to be some acceptance that these clubs can draw a bit of a crowd now.

Is there any other kind?

Last follow up for a few hours. The SFA could have said the following to the SJFA. Your north region told us last season they don't want in, your east region can't even sustain a single 16 team superleague and a fair-sized chunk of it is in the HL catchment anyway and we are not shifting that boundary for you, so there is no way you can enter as an intact association. That means this has to be done region by region so from now on we have to deal with all three regions individually and sort out a solution for each one at a time. What's actually happening doesn't fit that.

I understand that. What I think you need to understand is that Option Z would end the Lowland League's existence and hit the reset button completely in a way that potentially gets around that. Otherwise, this is a complete waste of time and the SFA simply should have told the SJFA to do it region by region. The problem from an EoS standpoint is that their recent actions do not point in that direction.

After last seasons fiasco of a meeting why would the SFA have even convened another north PWG meeting if the end game wasn't SJFA entry? The SFA could have told the SJFA to do it region by region, because the all three regions in approach was at a dead end. I'm actually shocked that's not what happened.

If Option Z unfolds the EoS would probably lose their ability to block having the ERSJFA as a parallel feeder in the east (right now their ability to do that revolves around the need to have them approve changes to the LL playoff rules, but that probably falls away if there is no longer a single LL), which is something they are vehemently opposed to. The SJFA want to enter intact. The EoS do not want the ERSJFA in as a parallel feeder meaning they don't want the SJFA to enter intact. There is no way to square that circle unless a way can be found to force one of these two parties to do something they don't want to do. For whatever reason the SFA appear to be targeting the EoS rather than the SJFA as the party that needs to do that.

No, but an obvious followup response to that from an SFA standpoint would be then what exactly do the EoS have to fear when odds on most seasons there probably wouldn't even be a playoff because the ERSJFA champion wouldn't even be licensed? Can understand the opposition to the principle of two parallel feeders so not blaming the EoS for having the posture they do. Suspect it's also partly related to not wanting Tayside, which is understandable from a midweek travel standpoint. Having the SoS at tier 5 and participating sporadically in a playoff with the EoS champion is already farcical. Scottish football isn't driven by logic but by the path of least resistance.

Have already told you I am not connected to the SJFA and that I am not expressing personal support for Option Z. Won't be responding to any future posts from you.

I'd have probably seen it that way as well if there hadn't been the extra snippet of info from the Montrose Roselea poster. Strong arming the NRSJFA to get on board points to an all three regions in at the same time approach with the SJFA intact rather than doing things region by region with the SJFA being dismantled. As stated above I have been surprised by the SFA posture over the last 18 months but we have to remember that McRae and Regan who drove the pyramid club 42 playoff and LL formation at the time of the SFL-SPL merger and added the commitment to progression clause to entry level licensing have been replaced by Petrie and Maxwell.

I agree the SPFL support looks a bit suspect which is why I had the "appear" in what I wrote, but the potential scope for future full membership at tier 6 level and below would have been much larger than having 16 extra clubs at tier 5 and bear in mind some of the extra clubs in the east that are likely to be in any future LL east (e.g. Lithgae, Dundonald, Penicuik, Broxburn, HoB) got their full membership before the new rule went into effect and still have voting rights on that basis. The nonleague seniors with full voting rights already outnumber the SPFL at an SFA AGM.

I was very surprised on the SFA posture when I read the PWG minutes posted on here last season, but there has been a bit of a regime change at the SFA with Rod Petrie and Ian Maxwell replacing Alan McRae of Cove Rangers and Stewart Regan.

They clearly saw all four as a possible basis for progress under certain circumstances, but what was interesting was that all three junior regions seem to have been steered towards Option Z by the blazers involved. According to a Montrose Roselea poster the north region are apparently being told presumably by the SFA and SJFA at a meeting with the HL to get with the programme on pyramid entry or "graze alone". We have also had the recent BBC website story about the SFA consulting with the relevant bodies on a possible HL:LL boundary shift which is one of the things that would be needed to make Option Z possible. A subsequent tweet from the EoS talked of negotiations and sticking to their position on what should happen rather than refuting the info from the BBC. The indications are that the SFA rightly or wrongly (please note I am not expressing my personal opinion on that only outlining my understanding of what is happening) still want to get the SJFA into the pyramid intact with all three regions at tier 6 and don't see a region by region approach that dismantles the SJFA or encourages breakaways from it as being the way to go.

Some people have responded in a way that shows they do. If the LL splits or is split depending on who gets to decide on that the playoff rules for LL entry are probably no longer applicable. At that point the EoS potentially loses its ability to unilaterally block ERSJFA entry and Option Z could happen despite the EoS being opposed.