Che Dail

Ah ok then, so just cancel the whole thing? The B teams are also used for players returning from injury. Lionel Messi played 22 times for Barcelona B team - can you explain the downside to that one...? He's quite good likes.

No, it simply means that some international players have benefitted from B teams in the pathway at their clubs.

Ukraine had 6 players in their squad last night with B team experience including Zinchenko the 1st goalscorer (Jong PSV). Yarmolenko - Kiev 2 (35apps) Stepanenko - Metalurh 2 (16) Sydorchuk - Metalurh 2 (17) Malinovskiy - Shaktar 3rds (39) Makarenko - Kiev 2 (30) and Switzerland has: Benito - Benfica B (5); Elvedi - Zurich B (24) Ajetti - Augsburg B (6) Widmer - Aarau B (9) Xhaka - Concordia Basel (feeder team) Zuber - Hoffenheim B (3) Sow - Zurich B (20) and Borrussia Moenchengladbach B (32) Shaquiri - Basel B (19) Gavranovic - Shalke 04 B (5) Others in the last eight with B teams in their league structure include Spain, Italy, Czech Rep. Out the comp are Portugal, Croatia, Holland and Germany. In the Czech Rep, B teams were introduced en-masse at Tier 3 in 2019/20.

The rules in other European countries governing B teams would have nothing to do with Scotland. Why would you not support B teams in the top flight? That's not what I said. I said that on the same basis (i.e. for the same reasons) that the European countries do not support B teams in the top flight, neither would I - and nor should the SFA. Why do you ask, do you think they should? You think Rangers B should be in the same league as the 1st team? Radical, but I don't think your idea will pass.

I'm talking about the impact of football: economic, social and health benefits. It means when the national football team does well, the positive effects are wide ranging.

On the same basis that other league bodies across Europe prohibit this, No, I wouldn't.

It should be that the country can develop players, clubs and the league structures to allow the best young players to thrive and develop. The 'side-effect' of developing better players is that the game improves, our clubs get stronger, and our national team benefits. But in order for that to happen, change is needed and compromise will be necessary. This won't please everyone - especially those who cannot see the bigger picture. The professional clubs have a massive part to play. Our two strongest clubs, the ones capable of competing at European level, are pitching an idea to introduce their B teams to the league structure. They say it will improve them as clubs and their pool of young (mainly Scottish players) coming through their academy structure. I think we should listen, and try it. The success of the national team is in everyone's interest, and that goes beyond football.

Quite a narrow view - if we're to shift focus towards the success of the national team, we should be looking to other countries to learn how they do it better than us - player development, club development, league structures, football philosophy, the lot. If you haven't seen it already, check out the BBC Roberto Martinez documentary and see the focus and importance placed on the Belgian national team. It's number 1 for a reason.

I was replying to: "Why not put the B teams in the top flight then why stop at tier 2?" (Think you'd shared that from another poster, sorry, should've replied direct to him). Are the OF definitely trying to move their 1st teams elsewhere?

Not one. Ronaldo, however, did make a few for Portugal - he played for Sporting B team.

Copy / pasted from the article: As a reserve team, clubs such as Barcelona and Real Madrid have been given special privileges by the Spanish Football Association which allow them to transfer players to and from their B teams throughout the season, even when the transfer window is closed. However, in order to keep things fair, B teams are barred from playing in the same division as their senior side. For example, when Castilla and Bilbao Athletic, the reserve team of La Liga side Athletic Bilbao, finished up in first and second place in the 1983/84 Segunda Division season, it was Hercules CF, Racing de Santander and Elche CF, who finished third, fourth and fifth respectively, who gained promotion to the top flight. The reason for this decision is due to the fact that clubs could use their B teams to benefit their senior teams. They could field a weakened squad when the two teams meet, for example, or transfer all of their best players to the B team when they face tougher opponents.

Well there's an explanation why they don't allow it in the Spanish League in this article: https://www.goalprofits.com/football-club-b-teams/ As an aside, it also says Messi played 22 times for Barcelona B team.

Yeah, those crazy Dutch and Belgians, absolute madness! Must be the North Sea. What do they know about football? Obsessed.

It is working because they have 7 international players age 23 or under who have progressed through academy / b team / 1st team at clubs, and that progression is mirrored for the national team. The effects of changes, big and small, are not always immediate. The downward trend since 2010 will have roots 10 or 15 years before - not sure why it occured. But since 2016 they've gone from 22nd to 20th to 14th to 12th (then back to14th) and could well find themselves top 10 in the world again after the Euros. England has 3 times the population of the Netherlands - I don't think population is a more accurate measure than, say, wealth - because richer countries tend to fare better at sport (eg see Norway / Denmark). But broadly speaking, over the past 20-30-40 years, I think most of Europe has looked to the Netherlands for inspiration when it comes to (total) football.

Yes - I think a consistent 'national' approach to playing style and formation would help. For example it almost goes without saying that Dutch teams right the way through the player pathway will adopt a 4-3-3 or variations thereof, always with an attitude towards attacking and going forward (that's just the way football is played). I believe that was something Mark Wotte was trying to implement, but found it difficult getting buy-in from others who knew better. Michel Sablon had similar struggles in Belgium, but succeeded - and now the national team is reaping the rewards. Did you see the Roberto Martinez BBC film? Really impressive. Facilities are improving here too - there are many more astros and indoor facilities - and coach education continues to grow - the foundations are there. I just think the top levels league structure is dull and wasteful, and not aligned with what others do in Europe - and if we want to be like them, we need to pick out examples of best practice across the board (youth to adult) and copy them.

There is a clear pathway for children in Scotland all the way from 5-6yr old up to under 19s and a lot of good work done over the years by the SFA and grassroots clubs. The apparent gap is an adequate transition from pro-youth to pro-adult football. You say Denzel Dumfries started at non-league level... so B teams have not yet caused the complete implosion of non-league football in the Netherlands, as per your predictions for Scotland?

Yes - I think Scotland can only sustain and only needs 2 professional leagues of FT players - and for B teams to have real value longer term, they would need to be in T2.

In the last 10 matches, the national team with some of the players you've listed has delivered: LDLWDWDDLL = equivalent to10 pts. In most league tables this form at 1 point per game would mean relegation zone. The two wins were against Luxemburg and the Faroe Islands. The league system and the clubs might be delivering some 'hope' for the national team, but not really any success when compared to other similarly small and wealthy countries such as Croatia, Denmark, Wales etc. Here's an example of how the young Dutch players have progressed. All are full internationals, albeit not all were named in the squad for the Euros. The 'Yong' or B teams are in the Eerste Divisie (Tier 2). Ryan Gravenberch (19); 44 Ajax B then 42 Ajax Jurrien Timber (20); 59 Ajax B then 21 Ajax Matthhijs de Ligt (21); 17 Ajax B then 77 Ajax + 56 Juventus Owen Vijndal (21); 59 Ajax B then 21 Ajax Cody Gakpo (22); 26 PSV B then 65 PSV Donyell Malen (22); 22 PSV B then 81 PSV Teun Koopmeiners (23); 25 AZ B then 114 AZ Alkmaar Davy Klassen (28); 6 Ajax B then 126 Ajax + Everton + W.Bremen + Ajax Most of these guys featured for Netherlands at age groups u15 / u16/ u17 etc - all were retained in their club academy system, all have increased in value for their club, and all feature for the national side with potential to continue their development. Other than Klassen, they're 19-23 yr old with bright futures ahead. It seems to be working, but no doubt our resident Dutch Nostradamus will explain why it is a disaster @Marten

More supporters going to watch games of football doesn't equate to a better standard of play. Look at our clubs' European co-efficient compared to other leagues abroad. You only need to look at some of the results by Killie or whoever else gets knocked out before R1 Europa league to see how strong our league structure is by comparison - there's no real strength in depth. Changing to 12-12-12-12 won't change that - it's not a 'restructure' of something good, just adding more numbers playing each other 4 times a season the length and breadth of the country. We have 2 pro-leagues of, overall, mediocrity. And then part-time football beneath that - deluded to think it's somehow any better than lower level football in Europe. Over the piece we get old school up-and-at 'em, kick and rush, run run run, roll it back to the GK to scud it up the pitch - it's mostly not a treat to watch - and that's reflected in our football all the way up to the national team. But that's not always the case at u16, u17, u19 - the problem is bridging the gap or transition between youth and adult professional football and getting our best young players playing at the top level v men in Scotland or abroad.

I know, it won't - but in fairness their preference had been to enter teams at least one tier up from LL. On structure: Scotland only needs (and can only sustain) two FT professional leagues. Longer term, if admitted, I think B teams should be limited to T2. At T3 I think we should have a national semi-pro 'Conference' of 16 clubs and T4 could be split regionally: LLW / LLE / Central / Highland. Something along those lines, a bit like the Czech league system. But instead of a pyramid shape, we have a 'column' structure.

it was not a good enough standard to aid the transition from B team to 1st team - so 5 or 6 clubs left it behind, including Hibs, Aberdeen, Celtic & Rangers - which made it even poorer than it was to begin with. A breakaway was predicted recently by the Dundee Chairman - might happen, who knows?

How will it ruin lower league football in Scotland? How can you possibly reach this conclusion? "People who support B-teams don't care about lower league football in Scotland. That is simply a fact." No, that is patently not a fact, it is another hysterical (and incorrect) claim, based on what you mistakenly believe. You cannot possibly back that statement up with fact.

Neither am I! For the most part, that is, other than the top 5 or 6. But for the 1 year trial it will provide regular and reliable fixtures and players will be preparing for Saturday football in real matches against men. Realistically, I expect they would reach T2 or T3 if allowed.

That was the Reserve League, and it was chronic: not good enough.

And how many times would you like to miss the point?