[Prime Ministers in your lifetime]

1. Harold Wilson by about a hundred million miles: genuinely intelligent, funny and caring man who could identify with ordinary folk and who beat the Tories four times (for which he was absolutely hated and hounded by the media, the rich, the establishment, MI5 loonies, etc). Only Prime Minister in British history who went a year in office without British troops killing anyone or being killed. Kept us out of Vietnam war. Intervened in Northern Ireland for all the right reasons, expanded and funded proper unis with grants that allowed working class kids to go; got rid of death penalty, raised spending on NHS and pensions, decriminalised homosexuality, legislated against racism, got rid of censorship.

 

Pity the rest of the leadership of the Labour Party was made up of backstabbing shits. If the North Sea oil money had sufficiently flowed when he was PM, we might actually live in a genuinely better world.

2. Callaghan. Decent human being from a real background who had lived a genuine life but circumstances were absolutely beyond him.

3. Brown. More or less see above.

4. Blair. Horrible to say a war criminal is still a better PM than the rest, but he was. Last one who actually tried to improve life in the UK.

5. Major. Not totally evil/corrupt/stupid.

[1982 World Cup - if everyone called "Alan" had been unavailble]

On 23/05/2022 at 21:25, Ewan8472 said:

Does it work for 1986 at all ?

Who played against Costa Rica ?

No Alans in 86 in our squad.

 

However, in 1990, Alan McInally did fail dismally against Costa Rica, wo with him unavailable in our Alan-free universe, maybe someone more effective would have played up front.

[1982 World Cup - if everyone called "Alan" had been unavailble]

Pub discussion here in Spain over the weekend among us auld boys got us thinking back to the 82 World Cup here and one of the wags said it's a pity everyone with the name Alan got picked because if none of them had ever played, we'd have qualified.

His argument was:

Jim Leighton in goals for all three games, instead of Alan Rough, would have reduced our goal difference.

McLeish and Miller as the central defenders instead of Alan Evans and Alan Hansen would have kept it tighter in the first match (Evans to blame for second New Zealand goal), might have staved off the Brazilians a bit better (not convinced by that one) and worked better against the old USSR in the third.

Joe Jordan, for instance, upfront against New Zealand instead of Alan Brazil would have either scored goals or made them for others.

 

What do retrofans think?

 

 

[Argentina 78: a reappraisal]

On 20/12/2021 at 20:08, Lurkst said:

Supposedly his international career ended after he asked Jock Stein if he could take some of the boys out "for a few beers".

 

I think it was Hansen and Souness, who arrived late at some squad gathering. The rest of the lads had had a drink that evening and they fancied one, too, Gemmill as captain went to Stein's room to ask if it was alright for them to have a beer and that was him finished.

 

I have heard a few times a rumour that Stein had a female friend in the room, too.

[Argentina 78: a reappraisal]

23 hours ago, Bogbrush1903 said:

Aye, Archie Gemmill he played another 14 times scoring 3 times for Scotland after the World Cup and played in the two crucial away wins in Sweden and Israel for the 1982 World Cup qualifying campaign. Therefore, the evidence contradicts my assertion that he was "past it".

I still think that his best years was in the first-half of the 1970s (1970-1975) where he was key to Derby County's two league titles during this time but only managed nine caps during this period, although unfortunately for him he was competing with Billy Bremner during this time.

However, wasn't it Archie Gemmill that replaced Don Masson ahead of Souness for the Iran game? Are you saying that you would've preferred Souness to play against Iran and for Gemmill to remain on the bench?

No, I wanted them both to play against Iran, Souness for Masson, Gemmill for Rioch. Some folk thought before that World Cup that Souness and Gemmill should have been the key midfield men due to Rioch and Masson being on dismal form that season. 

[Argentina 78: a reappraisal]

On 20/12/2021 at 14:36, craigkillie said:

Penalties are still goals, I'm not sure why conceding 4 penalties makes you sound any better. The other two sides in our group swatted them aside comfortably

Iran were comfortably the best team in Asia at the time, but had consistently failed to beat any European (or South American) opponents in the years leading up to the tournament, even in Tehran. In fact, heading into the tournament their only ever win against non-Asian opponents was against Ghana in a friendly a month before the World Cup. Their first ever win against a European team came against Macedonia in 2000.

I see your point, I was just comparing them to us letting in 8 goals in 82 with some very famous and successful players. Sometimes soft penalties get awarded, though, that aren't really a team's fault, as well, which I thought made us in Spain come out quite badly from the comparison.

 

 

[Argentina 78: a reappraisal]

1 minute ago, Lurkst said:

Aye Jinky would've run riot against Zaire. I guess his card was marked after the antics during the Home Internationals. 

 

I reckon Jinky could even have run riot against Brazil and or Yugoslavia, too. My old man, who was not a Celtic supporter, spent most of the last two games saying "Bring Johnstone on, bring Johnstone on!" but instead we got Willie Morgan.

 

What is it about Scotland managers not wanting to use our most talented players in World Cups?

[Argentina 78: a reappraisal]

3 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

Apart from that miss...

It wasn't an easy chance at all, though.

[Argentina 78: a reappraisal]

6 hours ago, Bogbrush1903 said:

Ah right, so John Greig didn't fancy him. It kinda of shatters the Chick Young mythology of why it was such a disgrace Cooper didn't play more than 22 times when he wasn't even playing regularly for his club side (under both Greig and latterly Souness).

However, we'll be forever indebted for Cooper's efforts in 1986 qualification; holding his nerve in the Cardiff cauldron on September 10th 1985 and for calming nerves with an excellent free-kick opener against Australia.

Unfortunately, it wasn't a prelude for a great 1986 World Cup for Cooper or Scotland though.

It's a pity injury robbed, by this time, veteren Motherwell Cooper from showcasing his talents one final time in 1990...

Agree with you on all points, though I think Fergie bottled it in 86 and should have given Cooper more of a chance. Cooper and McAvennie might just have got us something, but instead Graeme Sharp and Steve Archibald were allowed to make their usual contributions.

Apparently Cooper's honesty kept him out of the 90 squad: he admitted he would not be fit for the opening match, though he was expected to be ready after that, so wasn't taken. Richard Gough kept quiet about a toe injury, did get taken and only played part of the first game.

Mind you, I could see daft bugger Roxburgh not using Cooper, anyway: he also did not take other super skilful players like Strachan and Nicholas.

[Argentina 78: a reappraisal]

6 hours ago, Bogbrush1903 said:

Again, this list of 40 is scraping the bottom of the barrel but does highlight where we were weakest and the paucity of midfielders are very evident.

Niether McNab, Payne or Fitzpatrick would prove themselves to be international class although the latter might've been if he had landed at Aberdeen in the late 1970s/1980s before the move fell through.

Rioch, Masson and Gemmill were all past their best by 1978, although the latter will forever be remembered for his slaloming run past the Dutch defenders to score Scotland's third. I would've liked to have seen Gemmill play in 1974 perhaps in front of Bremner who was in the twilight of his playing career.

Poor Roy Aitken missed out on 1978 and 1982 but the former was too early for him.

What a pity John Wark wasn't included in the final selection to go to Argentina though.

Up front, Arthur Graham also missed out on 1978 and 1982. 1978 would've been far more likely for him than 1982 though.

Andy Gray, another to miss out in 78 and 82 (would also miss out in 86 too). I think 1978 was his most likeliest (it was unfortunate for him that the 1986 World Cup was just a year too late for him after his brief renaissance at Everton) but he had blotted his copy book with indiscipline in Prague during the qualifiers and was, quite rightly, passed over.

1978 was too late for Joe Harper, and perhaps Willie Johnston and if Gray couldn't be trusted for on-field discipline then neither should've Johnston. Derek Johnstone should'nt have been anywhere near the squad.

I'm surprised that Narey made the final 40 in 1978 as it was just before United would prove themselves as a force in Scottish football with two League Cup wins. Hegarty was a couple of years older though and might've been an option as, like McQueen, he was useful in the opposition's box at set plays. However, with McQueen unfit, we don't seem to have many options for the naturally commanding centre-back type role (Roddie MacDonald!!) which maybe forced McLeod's hand slightly to include him although it proved a terribly ill-judged decision. Willie Miller would've definitely made my squad.

As was the way in the 1970s, none of those goalies fill me with any confidence. I assume that was the second David Stewart of Leeds that played in the 1975 European Cup Final rather than Scotland World Cup 1974 star. It's a pity the latter wasn't still an option in 1978 as I've always thought he was a decent keeper for the time.

Alan Rough!!! Haha, no way... oh wait he made the squad and played in all three games  To be fair to Rough in 1978 though, he had played well at Anfield against Wales; so perhaps worth a try in 1978 with the 1974 David Harvey unavailable but definitely not in 1982 when Leighton had usurped him in quality.

Rough wouldn't have made my Iran team after the Peru match though.

These initial 40s are interesting, but show that the managers probably did mainly take most of the right people. Even if Rioch, Masson and Gemmill were past it, they were still far better players than McNab, Payne and Fitzpatrick. I'd actually argue than none of the three were actually past it, though: Masson and Rioch had been on poor form that season, so their confidence was down, too, and I am fairly sure that Rioch was not 100% fit for the Peru game, but both he and Gemmill did play very well, indeed, in the Holland game.

Willie Miller was actually told by McLeod he would be going as the other central defender if McQueen didn't travel. Unfortunately, Ally and the SFA took an emblematic crock that the entire Scotland medical and physio staff said would never be fit at any stage of the tournament because they found a single doctor who said differently and desperately wanted to believe he would be there for the second round. Personally, I would have had Gray in ahead of Derek Johnstone, however the big guy had scored so many goals that season, and had banged in some in the home internationals, that I do understand his selection. Arthur Graham would have been a saner choice than Willie Johnston.

Jim Blyth had been told by McLeod he was getting a game after Peru, almost certainly against Iran, but McLeod reneged on this, as he did with his decision to play Souness against Iran.

Aitken, Wark, Narey and Hegarty all just too young and inexperienced for a manager to gamble on in 78, I reckon, though Narey was already a superior player to Tam Forsyth and Kenny Burns but I can see why it was felt his time was not yet come.

TBH, I don't think Gemmill would have added anything much in 74: Bremner was great in that tournament and so was Davie Hay. Our flaws were playing Dennis Law in the first match, not going for more goals against Zaire, not using Jimmy Johnstone at all and Dalglish doing zilch over three games.

 

 

[Argentina 78: a reappraisal]

45 minutes ago, Bogbrush1903 said:

Wow, I've never see the initial 40 before and it just shows how thin the options were, I mean he's scraping the barrel there seemingly just adding players to make up the 40.

I mean Iain McCulloch, for a moment I got mixed up with the Killie goalie Alan but then remembered that Jimmy Sirrell had got Notts County flying through the leagues with a Scottish striker. But an international player! Certainly not

George McCluskey! I would've turned to Frank McGarvey first, and it would be McGarvey that would become the internationalist whilst McCluskey slipped into the lower leagues in England during the 1980s.

Des Bremner! Last capped in 1976, ok a European Cup winner like Evans but was never going to Spain. Which should've been the case with Evans too. I wonder if Stein felt under pressure to include one of the European Cup winning Scots? Didn't Ken McNaught also winning a European Cup medal?

Bobby Russell! A good enough player when he broke through in the late 1970s but by the early 1980s he's struggling in a struggling Oldco team. He would have a bit of an Indian summer with Motherwell though.

Derek Johnstone!! No thanks, I wouldn't have taken him to Argentina let alone Spain

Arthur Graham! I know he played a few games in 1979 and scored against Argentina but by 1982 he should've been internationally obsolete...and was apart from this 40!

Alan Rough!!! Haha, no way... oh wait he made the squad and played in all three games

I know Jim Bett had made his debut in the Hampden win over a weak Dutch team just before the finals, he was from the same mining village as Stein and a class act on the pitch but the fact that Stein wouldn't play him again until 1984 means he was filling up the numbers in the 40 in 1982 and always likely to drop out.

I didn't know that about Kennedy. He was a far better and experienced player in 1982 than he was when he actually made the team(albeit because of injuries) in 1978. He was certainly a fit player but couldn't have played much more for Scotland after 1978.

I would've played Leighton, McLeish and Miller in the 1982 World Cup Finals but I think adding another Aberdeen defensive player would've been a step too far. I think that I would've taken Albiston instead of Frank Gray at left-back and my preferred defensive line would've been Leighton-Burley-Albiston-McLeish and Miller.

Easy for me though, I'm not getting put under pressure by Dalglish and Souness to include their pal.

Again though, like Kennedy, a player appears at the wrong World Cup. Albiston plays in 1986 (I think against Uruguay), by which time he was finished at the top level but doesn't play in 1982 where he had good experience but youth on his side.

And here is the 40 for Argentina:

Goalkeepers:-
Alan Rough (Partick Thistle)
Jim Blyth (Coventry)
Bobby Clark (Aberdeen)
Jim Stewart (Middlesbrough)*
Dave Stewart (Leeds U)*
Defenders :-
Sandy Jardine (Rangers)
Stewart Kennedy (Aberdeen)
Willie Donnachie (Man City)
Martin Buchan (Man Utd)
Tom Forsyth (Rangers)
Kenny Burns (Nottm Forest)
Gordon McQueen (Man Utd)
Willie Miller (Aberdeen)*
John Blackley (Newcastle)*
David Narey (Dundee Utd)*
Paul Hegarty (Dundee Utd)*
Roddie MacDonald (Celtic)*
John Brownlie (Hibernian)*
Midfielders :-
Bruce Rioch (Derby Co)
Don Masson (Derby Co)
Asa Hartford (Man City)
Graeme Souness (Liverpool)
Archie Gemmill (Nottm Forest)
Neil McNab (Tottenham H)*
Graeme Payne (Dundee Utd)*
Tony Fitzpatrick (St Mirren)*
John Wark (Ipswich)*
Roy Aitken (Celtic)*
Forwards :-
Lou Macari (Man Utd)
Joe Jordan (Man Utd)
John Robertson (Nottm Forest)
Joe Harper (Aberdeen)
Kenny Dalglish (Liverpool)
Willie Johnston (WBA)
Derek Johnstone (Rangers)
Andy Gray (Aston Villa)*
Arthur Graham (Leeds U)*
Ian Wallace (Coventry)*
Frank McGarvey (St Mirren)*
 

[Argentina 78: a reappraisal]

2 hours ago, Bogbrush1903 said:

I've liked that but I do think John Robertson and Joe Jordon were on the decline by 1982 and the latter certainly had injury problems too.

Hindsight has proven that Stein didn't pick the strongest squad available to him. If Allan Evans was going to be tried then it should've been in 1981 when Villa were winning the title. By 1982, and despite the European Cup win (where they beat Valur, Dynamo Berlin, Dynamo Kiev, Anderlecht and Bayern Munich) they were already on a fairly precipitous slide. You don't try out a new to international football centre half on the eve of a World Cup.

However, perhaps Evans is being unfairly judged because his only World Cup game he had the calamitous Hanson beside him. 

Hansen should've been nowhere near the first XI. He had partner McLeish (0-3 defeat in Spain before the finals), Evans (two goals against NZ) and Miller (the Soviet Union disaster). He was probably the weakest defender out of the four and should've been weeded out long before the Soviet Union match.

I agree that McGrain would've been good in 1978 but was past it internationally by 1982. I'm not sure if Burley was fully fit as he had suffered a serious injury in 1981 I think but either Burley or Ray Stewart would've been more likely right-backs by 1982.

Despite his goal, I wouldn't have played Narey against Brazil, nor would've Hartford (past it by 1982), Hansen (shite), or John Robertson (fitness levels in Seville heat) been in the team.

I wonder if Charlie Nicholas would've been taken had he not been injured. He certainly was still waiting for his first cap. For a winger, I can't remember Davie Cooper's form at the time but he was certainly in the international wilderness. As an Aberdeen fan, I would've been more inclined to try out Peter Weir.

However, out of the squad he picked, I would have favoured Archibald purely for his form with Spurs at the time, although hindisght also tells us that it never happened for him at international level.

Stein didn't have the best of times as Scottish manager; however, conversely, I would've loved to see how he fared as manager in 1978. Although, he had died by 1986, I think the 1986 World Cup would've been very difficult experience for him had he lived to see it (and had he managed to get us past Australia)  

 

Funnily enough, in some ways I agree with you: the team I named would not actually have been the one I'd have sent out against Brazil, but I reckon it would have been much more effective against New Zealand and the USSR than what we had, so I said they'd have got us off to a better start and finish.

I don't think Stein would have taken Burley if he wasn't fully fit, despite my criticism of Big Jock's 1982 decisions, he would not have taken a crock like McLeod did with McQueen in 78. Ray Stewart was told at the last minute he wasn't going and Stuart Kennedy of your Aberdeen was so pissed off about not making the 22 for Spain that he told McLeish, Miller, Strachan and Leighton he would never go for a 50-50 ball again because they all got pay rises for being in the 82 squad!

IF Nicholas had not got injured I'm sure he'd have been taken (probably getting Paul Sturrock's place), but not so sure he'd have played 

 

Stein's initial squad of 40 submitted to FIFA did include Davie Cooper but not Peter Weir. It was:

 

Roy Aitken
Arthur Albiston
Steve Archibald
Jim Bett
Alan Brazil
Des Bremner
George Burley
Tommy Burns
Kenny Dalglish
Allan Evans
Davie Cooper
Arthur Graham
Andy Gray
Frank Gray
Alan Hansen
Asa Hartford
Paul Hegarty
Derek Johnstone
Joe Jordan
Stewart Kennedy
Jim Leighton
George McCluskey
Danny McGrain
Alex McLeish
Iain McCulloch
Willie Miller
Iain Munro
David Narey
Davie Provan
John Robertson
Alan Rough
Robert Russell
Graeme Souness
Gordon Strachan
Jim Stewart
Ray Stewart
Paul Sturrock
Billy Thompson
John Wark
George Wood

[Argentina 78: a reappraisal]

21 hours ago, Anfield 1977 said:

MacLeod had made arrangements to watch the France V Iran match in Paris on the Wednesday before the opening Home International match.

However with the game clashing with live screening of the European Cup Final in France it was rearranged for the Friday night. This meant he would struggle to get back for the N. Ireland match and also miss out on the preparation. as the squad assembled on the Wednesday - minus the Liverpool players.

Still not much of an excuse for literally never having watched them, or had them watched. Arthur Montford said he was embarrassed that the Iranian journalists there were all surprised that McLeod hadn't even sent someone he trusted to watch Iran play and make notes on them in games prior to the World Cup, and when his assistant John Haggart, on his own initiative, went to watch them in training, he reported back to McLeod that they were very athletic, fit and very good at moving around the pitch, which McLeod dismissed by just saying "we'll have too much in our armoury for them".

 

I liked Ally (I met him once and he was really great company and a lovely person) but he was not up to it. Having said that, Stein, Fergie and Roxburgh, for all their preparations, didn't do any better than him in World Cups, I suppose.

[Argentina 78: a reappraisal]

51 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

Telling each other to "f*** off", as far as I remember

That's what I remember, too. 

The were not a very united or happy overall squad, according to the "78" book.

[Argentina 78: a reappraisal]

This thread has got me re-reading "78: How a Nation Lost the World Cup". John Haggart, McLeod's assistant, reveals in it that Ally literally never watched Iran, even when Haggart went to watch them train two nights before the game, McLeod was like, what do you want o bother watching them for? He also said that he and McLeod had agreed that Souness would play against Iran, along with two other players (I have a feeling Jim Blyth might have been one for something else said in the book), only for Ally to change his mind almost at the last minute and drop all three.

 

 

[Argentina 78: a reappraisal]

I suppose we have strayed far from Argentina. I've never been sure if this is a false memory, but do any of the other veterans remember hearing the Scotland players arguing with each other during the Iran game? Did the mikes around the pitch not pick up some snash among them?

Another forgotten factor about Argentina were the goals against Holland that were disallowed. Legend has it that a players' revolt led to them picking the team for Holland. If that's true it's a pity they hadn't picked the team against Iran, too, which was were that campaign went spectacularly wrong, not in the Peru game.

[Argentina 78: a reappraisal]

23 minutes ago, ArabAuslander said:

Apparently this was due to Grain Exports between the two and there was heavy pressure put on Peru to throw the game from the junta.

Aye, I think a lot of very credible sources, including in Argentina, have discussed this. The junta was a nasty bunch of evil shites and this was far from the worst of their many crimes.

[Argentina 78: a reappraisal]

On 04/12/2021 at 14:33, nate said:

Stein bungled 82. Shipping 8 goals in 3 games at this level exposes glaring tactical deficiencies. It’s poor coaching. 8 goals! Of the 24 competing nations only pisspoor New Zealand and El Salvador conceded more. We certainly can’t blame it on inexperience. Scottish players who kicked a ball down there must’ve had about 500 caps between them.

Compare our 82 to similar nations playing a similar style of football, with a squad of equal (or lesser) players, and who were likewise seeded 3rd in their Group. For example, Northern Ireland. They had hosts Spain and a tough Yugoslavia in their Group and only conceded ONCE. Why? Because they were better organised. Their manager played to their collective strengths, not their individual weaknesses.

Compare 82 to 86, under Fergie. We had a comprehensively tougher Group (no minnows) and only conceded 3. Spain wasn’t an aberration. Stein’s defensive shortcomings were again exposed in the follow-up Euro 84 qualifiers, another alarming defensive debacle on our way to finishing bottom of our section.

I agree with poster Marlow. The 82 squad was better than 78’s. The opposition was weaker too, IMO. The Soviets - essentially our main rivals - showed no credible form either side of 82. They’d finished last in the most recent EC qualifiers, trailing Greece, Hungary and Finland ffs. Obviously you’re no European diddy reaching a WC, but USSR had a really easy qualifying section for Spain 82 (Iceland, Turkey and some others with little or no WC pedigree).

The Miller-Hansen slapstick show was indicative of a deeper malaise: we were a defensive shambles. The 2 NZ goals are still painful to watch. Stein was incapable of maximising the resources at his disposal. Defenders Miller, Hansen, McGrain, Frank Gray to a lesser extent…superior club players and capable internationalists every one of them. Down in Spain they looked like they’d never met before. And even Stein realised the folly of picking Allan Evans. He never picked him again.

If Stein takes the plaudits for past glories (and rightly so) then he must also take the blame for Spain 82. 

Yes, for such a legendary football thinker, his defensive planning and selections for the national team were poor for years. Hansen was regularly pish for Scotland in the first few years of Stein's reign, but the press and media, especially in England, seemed to make sure he got picked for all the big games he could be bothered turning up for. Stein also did this mad thing regularly of playing central defenders out of position in midfield for the first few years, so you'd see Miller, Narey, McLeish, etc, all being wasted there while some nightmare partnership would play at centre half and sweeper.

It was only really in the last two years of his life that he saw the light at the back and went for the Leighton, McLeish, Miller triangle as his foundation (which quite a lot of people, me included, had been saying in the year or so before the 82 World Cup - McLeish and Miller had had a brilliant game together against England down at Wembley in 81 in what I think was the first ever time Stein had picked them together, and that was when calls began to grow to make them the regular central defence, which Stein ignored. People had also over the same time period been wanting Leighton to start getting some international games under his belt, but ISTR Stein never even played him for friendlies before the 82 World Cup. Jim McLean, who was Stein's assistant, definitely wanted McLeish and Miller together at the back, too, in Spain).

Once he settled on McLesih, Miler and Leighton, with a couple of good full backs - at first he liked Nicol and Albiston, then went for the even better Gough and Malpas - we were bloody good at the back.

Fergie knew a good defence when he saw one, and continued into the 86 World Cup with that - for me, our best national team defence ever (I'd put them above even 1974's very good unit). And even when McLeish got injured, the equally great David Narey slotted in superbly to the set up.

It's a pity Fergie couldn't get his midfielders and forwards functioning anywhere near as well for Scotland, though!

[Argentina 78: a reappraisal]

52 minutes ago, Ewan8472 said:

Was Tommy Burns treated the same way as Ray Steward/t ?

Yes, you are right. Apparently it was the sadism of the way they were treated that shocked other players.

[Argentina 78: a reappraisal]

37 minutes ago, Ewan8472 said:

Wow !

Any sources for further reading please ?

IIRC Evans and McGrain got dropped for mistakes in the N.Z. game.

According to Paul Sturrock , for the Brazil game , H*ns*n was asked to play right sided  defender but , realising he was a third rate David Narey , refused !

 

 

 

Evans and McGrain were deservedly dropped as they gifted the goals to New Zealand - even Stein had to see that (mind you, he brought McGrain on against the USSR when we were chasing a win in the last game - wtf?). No idea why he thought playing Evans in the first place made any sense other than to appease media south of the border because he had won a European Cup recently - he had figured precisely f-all in the qualifying games, not even in squads. 

A good starting point is Archie MacPherson's "Adventures in the Golden Age" and its chapters about the 1982 World Cup. Over the years, I've read so many biographies/ghost written autobiographies of people involved that it all blends into a blur beyond that. There is a cracking book to be written about the 82 World Cup. 

I'm not sure what the ideal starting line-up would have been in 82 for the first match and I know it's easy to say this, but lots of us knew at the time that Leighton was clearly a better keeper than Rough, that the McLeish/Miller partnership worked and McGrain was past his best, though I do acknowledge that Rough and McGrain were experienced and Hansen was a big name player for Europe's top club, so I understand Stein's conservatism. Mind you, I couldn't stand Hansen or Archibald as Scotland players and the faith in Alan Brazil was also misplaced.

 

Of the people available, I reckon this lot would have got us off to a better start (and finish) in that campaign:

 

Leighton

Narey or Burley

Gray 

McLeish

Miller

Souness

Strachan

Wark

Dalglish

Robertson

Jordan.

 

[Argentina 78: a reappraisal]

3 hours ago, Ewan8472 said:

1982 - Could you elaborate on the questionable man management please ?

Anything to do with H*ns*n ?

I remember Davie Proven in his column saying , iirc , Jock Stein was " intimidated " by S**n*ss

I remember the defence was poor against N.Z. and continued from there.

 

Going back to 1978 ( no , no ! ) Stuart Kennedy has some things to say about squad " unity "

Burns told him , Stuart , directly he did not think he was any good.

Rioch and senior players expected the " junior " players to get them their drinks

Archie was not popular !!!

 

 

1982, at that time Stein, for some reason, enjoyed treating Dalglish really badly. Even Stein worshippers in the know admit this and that it affected the already dour Kenny's feelings about playing for Scotland under Stein. Provan was also treated badly by all accounts and thought about abandoning the squad while in Spain. Other players had been horrified at the way Stein sadistically told some of their friends in a squad gathering pre-World Cup (maybe at the England game?) that they weren't going - Ray Steward was one of the victims and it got other players worried about how Stein would handle them. He also had favourites - Souness obviously being numero uno - and the home based players thought he was always going to go for his anglos in key positions at the start (Evans, Hansen) or proteges (McGrain/Rough) no matter how much they proved themselves. He even pissed off his support staff - he asked them who they would advise him to pick for the USSR game and Jim McLean said McLeish and Miller in central defence, only for Stein to admit he had no interest in anyone else's ideas and it had been a wind up.

 

 

[Argentina 78: a reappraisal]

3 hours ago, Ewan8472 said:

Still no natural left full back. It is worse than I remembered !

Definitely McLeod's fault: with Danny McGrain injured, and he coud play superbly at left back if necessary, Donnachie really was the only one in the squad. Frank Gray, for instance, had been named in the initial 40 man squad, but McLeod insisted on taking Gordon McQueen, even though every member of the medical/phsyio staff insisted he would never be fit for any stage of the tournament (McLeod's dream was to play him in the later stages).

With Donnachie suspended and Jardine injured for the Peru game, the back four was always going to have someone out of position at left back.

[Argentina 78: a reappraisal]

Some really great posts here. 

I really, really recommend Graham McColl's book "78: How a Nation Lost the World Cup" as the best set of insights into that campaign ever assembled, although the quality of some of the analysis on this thread is just as good.

I still think 1982 was, in a very different way, a disappointment: I think Stein had a better squad than any other Scotland manager in a World Cup (though Ormond came closest to a best defined team of 11) but they did not do as well as they could have due to selection decisions and questionable man management, legend though he was. I'd actually like to read a book dedicated to that World Cup campaign (there's one good one about 74 and two about 78). Archie MacPherson has a very good chapter on it in his "Adventures in the Golden Age" but I'd love to know more.

 

 

 

[Argentina 78: a reappraisal]

6 hours ago, Ken Deans said:

Danny McGrain and big Gordon being out didn't help us at all and we ended up with Stuart Kennedy at full back. Peru were eminently beatable although it would have been more likely had Ally picked his best team from the off. Iran game a complete disaster.  Not knowing that Peru's Cubillas was good at free kicks was just ludicrous. Also the SFA organisation for that tournament was laughable.

 

What hurt the most was that we battered Holland and that team would have done alright latter stages

I think one of Ally McLeod's MANY problems was that he couldn't actually pick what would have struck him as his best team for the first match: the numbers indicate he had planned to kick off with:

1 Rough

2 Jardine RB (injured) replaced by Stuart Kennedy

3 Donnachie LB (suspended) replaced by Martin Buchan playing his only game ever at left back

4 Buchan CB (played out of position) replaced by Kenny Burns

5 McQueen CB  (injured) replaced by Tam Forsyth

6 Rioch (pretty certain he was not fully fit for the first game)

7 Masson

8 Dalglish

9 Jordan

10 Hartford

11 Johnston

 

Best team available for the Peru game and considering fitness might have been:

 

Blyth

Kennedy

Buchan

Forsyth

Burns

Souness

Gemmill

Dalglish

Jordan

Hartford

Robertson (though he was poor against Iran)

 

 

 

 

[Argentina 78: a reappraisal]

Doomed to get off to a bad start defensively in the critical opening match from before the start of the tournament: Danny McGrain and Gordon McQueen being injured were massive, massive blows. Then for the Peru game, Sandy Jardine was also injured and Willie Donnachie was suspended. This meant the inexperienced Stuart Kennedy, good player though he was, was our only available fullback (McLeod and the SFA had taken Gordon McQueen even though all the medics had said he'd never be fit for any stage of the tournament so the squad was minus a defender) and the great Martin Buchan was forced to play at left back for the only time in his career. Rioch wasn't match fit and he and Masson had been off form for months. Bud Johnson was a moron waiting to erupt into a dumpster fire. And all this against the South American champions playing in South America. The team probably put on a better performance against Peru than they should have, actually.

Souness should have been brought in for the second game - I can just about understand McLeod's loyalty to Masson, a very, very talented player, for the first game, but no real playmaker in the second match was idiotic.

Kind of agree 82 squad should have done better - more talented and sensible with a legendary manager, however, he made some really poor choices in Spain.