Marlow

1. Harold Wilson by about a hundred million miles: genuinely intelligent, funny and caring man who could identify with ordinary folk and who beat the Tories four times (for which he was absolutely hated and hounded by the media, the rich, the establishment, MI5 loonies, etc). Only Prime Minister in British history who went a year in office without British troops killing anyone or being killed. Kept us out of Vietnam war. Intervened in Northern Ireland for all the right reasons, expanded and funded proper unis with grants that allowed working class kids to go; got rid of death penalty, raised spending on NHS and pensions, decriminalised homosexuality, legislated against racism, got rid of censorship. Pity the rest of the leadership of the Labour Party was made up of backstabbing shits. If the North Sea oil money had sufficiently flowed when he was PM, we might actually live in a genuinely better world. 2. Callaghan. Decent human being from a real background who had lived a genuine life but circumstances were absolutely beyond him. 3. Brown. More or less see above. 4. Blair. Horrible to say a war criminal is still a better PM than the rest, but he was. Last one who actually tried to improve life in the UK. 5. Major. Not totally evil/corrupt/stupid.

No Alans in 86 in our squad. However, in 1990, Alan McInally did fail dismally against Costa Rica, wo with him unavailable in our Alan-free universe, maybe someone more effective would have played up front.

Pub discussion here in Spain over the weekend among us auld boys got us thinking back to the 82 World Cup here and one of the wags said it's a pity everyone with the name Alan got picked because if none of them had ever played, we'd have qualified. His argument was: Jim Leighton in goals for all three games, instead of Alan Rough, would have reduced our goal difference. McLeish and Miller as the central defenders instead of Alan Evans and Alan Hansen would have kept it tighter in the first match (Evans to blame for second New Zealand goal), might have staved off the Brazilians a bit better (not convinced by that one) and worked better against the old USSR in the third. Joe Jordan, for instance, upfront against New Zealand instead of Alan Brazil would have either scored goals or made them for others. What do retrofans think?

I think it was Hansen and Souness, who arrived late at some squad gathering. The rest of the lads had had a drink that evening and they fancied one, too, Gemmill as captain went to Stein's room to ask if it was alright for them to have a beer and that was him finished. I have heard a few times a rumour that Stein had a female friend in the room, too.

No, I wanted them both to play against Iran, Souness for Masson, Gemmill for Rioch. Some folk thought before that World Cup that Souness and Gemmill should have been the key midfield men due to Rioch and Masson being on dismal form that season.

I see your point, I was just comparing them to us letting in 8 goals in 82 with some very famous and successful players. Sometimes soft penalties get awarded, though, that aren't really a team's fault, as well, which I thought made us in Spain come out quite badly from the comparison.

I reckon Jinky could even have run riot against Brazil and or Yugoslavia, too. My old man, who was not a Celtic supporter, spent most of the last two games saying "Bring Johnstone on, bring Johnstone on!" but instead we got Willie Morgan. What is it about Scotland managers not wanting to use our most talented players in World Cups?

It wasn't an easy chance at all, though.

Agree with you on all points, though I think Fergie bottled it in 86 and should have given Cooper more of a chance. Cooper and McAvennie might just have got us something, but instead Graeme Sharp and Steve Archibald were allowed to make their usual contributions. Apparently Cooper's honesty kept him out of the 90 squad: he admitted he would not be fit for the opening match, though he was expected to be ready after that, so wasn't taken. Richard Gough kept quiet about a toe injury, did get taken and only played part of the first game. Mind you, I could see daft bugger Roxburgh not using Cooper, anyway: he also did not take other super skilful players like Strachan and Nicholas.

These initial 40s are interesting, but show that the managers probably did mainly take most of the right people. Even if Rioch, Masson and Gemmill were past it, they were still far better players than McNab, Payne and Fitzpatrick. I'd actually argue than none of the three were actually past it, though: Masson and Rioch had been on poor form that season, so their confidence was down, too, and I am fairly sure that Rioch was not 100% fit for the Peru game, but both he and Gemmill did play very well, indeed, in the Holland game. Willie Miller was actually told by McLeod he would be going as the other central defender if McQueen didn't travel. Unfortunately, Ally and the SFA took an emblematic crock that the entire Scotland medical and physio staff said would never be fit at any stage of the tournament because they found a single doctor who said differently and desperately wanted to believe he would be there for the second round. Personally, I would have had Gray in ahead of Derek Johnstone, however the big guy had scored so many goals that season, and had banged in some in the home internationals, that I do understand his selection. Arthur Graham would have been a saner choice than Willie Johnston. Jim Blyth had been told by McLeod he was getting a game after Peru, almost certainly against Iran, but McLeod reneged on this, as he did with his decision to play Souness against Iran. Aitken, Wark, Narey and Hegarty all just too young and inexperienced for a manager to gamble on in 78, I reckon, though Narey was already a superior player to Tam Forsyth and Kenny Burns but I can see why it was felt his time was not yet come. TBH, I don't think Gemmill would have added anything much in 74: Bremner was great in that tournament and so was Davie Hay. Our flaws were playing Dennis Law in the first match, not going for more goals against Zaire, not using Jimmy Johnstone at all and Dalglish doing zilch over three games.

And here is the 40 for Argentina: Goalkeepers:- Alan Rough (Partick Thistle) Jim Blyth (Coventry) Bobby Clark (Aberdeen) Jim Stewart (Middlesbrough)* Dave Stewart (Leeds U)* Defenders :- Sandy Jardine (Rangers) Stewart Kennedy (Aberdeen) Willie Donnachie (Man City) Martin Buchan (Man Utd) Tom Forsyth (Rangers) Kenny Burns (Nottm Forest) Gordon McQueen (Man Utd) Willie Miller (Aberdeen)* John Blackley (Newcastle)* David Narey (Dundee Utd)* Paul Hegarty (Dundee Utd)* Roddie MacDonald (Celtic)* John Brownlie (Hibernian)* Midfielders :- Bruce Rioch (Derby Co) Don Masson (Derby Co) Asa Hartford (Man City) Graeme Souness (Liverpool) Archie Gemmill (Nottm Forest) Neil McNab (Tottenham H)* Graeme Payne (Dundee Utd)* Tony Fitzpatrick (St Mirren)* John Wark (Ipswich)* Roy Aitken (Celtic)* Forwards :- Lou Macari (Man Utd) Joe Jordan (Man Utd) John Robertson (Nottm Forest) Joe Harper (Aberdeen) Kenny Dalglish (Liverpool) Willie Johnston (WBA) Derek Johnstone (Rangers) Andy Gray (Aston Villa)* Arthur Graham (Leeds U)* Ian Wallace (Coventry)* Frank McGarvey (St Mirren)*

Funnily enough, in some ways I agree with you: the team I named would not actually have been the one I'd have sent out against Brazil, but I reckon it would have been much more effective against New Zealand and the USSR than what we had, so I said they'd have got us off to a better start and finish. I don't think Stein would have taken Burley if he wasn't fully fit, despite my criticism of Big Jock's 1982 decisions, he would not have taken a crock like McLeod did with McQueen in 78. Ray Stewart was told at the last minute he wasn't going and Stuart Kennedy of your Aberdeen was so pissed off about not making the 22 for Spain that he told McLeish, Miller, Strachan and Leighton he would never go for a 50-50 ball again because they all got pay rises for being in the 82 squad! IF Nicholas had not got injured I'm sure he'd have been taken (probably getting Paul Sturrock's place), but not so sure he'd have played Stein's initial squad of 40 submitted to FIFA did include Davie Cooper but not Peter Weir. It was: Roy Aitken Arthur Albiston Steve Archibald Jim Bett Alan Brazil Des Bremner George Burley Tommy Burns Kenny Dalglish Allan Evans Davie Cooper Arthur Graham Andy Gray Frank Gray Alan Hansen Asa Hartford Paul Hegarty Derek Johnstone Joe Jordan Stewart Kennedy Jim Leighton George McCluskey Danny McGrain Alex McLeish Iain McCulloch Willie Miller Iain Munro David Narey Davie Provan John Robertson Alan Rough Robert Russell Graeme Souness Gordon Strachan Jim Stewart Ray Stewart Paul Sturrock Billy Thompson John Wark George Wood

Still not much of an excuse for literally never having watched them, or had them watched. Arthur Montford said he was embarrassed that the Iranian journalists there were all surprised that McLeod hadn't even sent someone he trusted to watch Iran play and make notes on them in games prior to the World Cup, and when his assistant John Haggart, on his own initiative, went to watch them in training, he reported back to McLeod that they were very athletic, fit and very good at moving around the pitch, which McLeod dismissed by just saying "we'll have too much in our armoury for them". I liked Ally (I met him once and he was really great company and a lovely person) but he was not up to it. Having said that, Stein, Fergie and Roxburgh, for all their preparations, didn't do any better than him in World Cups, I suppose.

That's what I remember, too. The were not a very united or happy overall squad, according to the "78" book.

This thread has got me re-reading "78: How a Nation Lost the World Cup". John Haggart, McLeod's assistant, reveals in it that Ally literally never watched Iran, even when Haggart went to watch them train two nights before the game, McLeod was like, what do you want o bother watching them for? He also said that he and McLeod had agreed that Souness would play against Iran, along with two other players (I have a feeling Jim Blyth might have been one for something else said in the book), only for Ally to change his mind almost at the last minute and drop all three.

I suppose we have strayed far from Argentina. I've never been sure if this is a false memory, but do any of the other veterans remember hearing the Scotland players arguing with each other during the Iran game? Did the mikes around the pitch not pick up some snash among them? Another forgotten factor about Argentina were the goals against Holland that were disallowed. Legend has it that a players' revolt led to them picking the team for Holland. If that's true it's a pity they hadn't picked the team against Iran, too, which was were that campaign went spectacularly wrong, not in the Peru game.

Aye, I think a lot of very credible sources, including in Argentina, have discussed this. The junta was a nasty bunch of evil shites and this was far from the worst of their many crimes.

Yes, for such a legendary football thinker, his defensive planning and selections for the national team were poor for years. Hansen was regularly pish for Scotland in the first few years of Stein's reign, but the press and media, especially in England, seemed to make sure he got picked for all the big games he could be bothered turning up for. Stein also did this mad thing regularly of playing central defenders out of position in midfield for the first few years, so you'd see Miller, Narey, McLeish, etc, all being wasted there while some nightmare partnership would play at centre half and sweeper. It was only really in the last two years of his life that he saw the light at the back and went for the Leighton, McLeish, Miller triangle as his foundation (which quite a lot of people, me included, had been saying in the year or so before the 82 World Cup - McLeish and Miller had had a brilliant game together against England down at Wembley in 81 in what I think was the first ever time Stein had picked them together, and that was when calls began to grow to make them the regular central defence, which Stein ignored. People had also over the same time period been wanting Leighton to start getting some international games under his belt, but ISTR Stein never even played him for friendlies before the 82 World Cup. Jim McLean, who was Stein's assistant, definitely wanted McLeish and Miller together at the back, too, in Spain). Once he settled on McLesih, Miler and Leighton, with a couple of good full backs - at first he liked Nicol and Albiston, then went for the even better Gough and Malpas - we were bloody good at the back. Fergie knew a good defence when he saw one, and continued into the 86 World Cup with that - for me, our best national team defence ever (I'd put them above even 1974's very good unit). And even when McLeish got injured, the equally great David Narey slotted in superbly to the set up. It's a pity Fergie couldn't get his midfielders and forwards functioning anywhere near as well for Scotland, though!

Yes, you are right. Apparently it was the sadism of the way they were treated that shocked other players.

Evans and McGrain were deservedly dropped as they gifted the goals to New Zealand - even Stein had to see that (mind you, he brought McGrain on against the USSR when we were chasing a win in the last game - wtf?). No idea why he thought playing Evans in the first place made any sense other than to appease media south of the border because he had won a European Cup recently - he had figured precisely f-all in the qualifying games, not even in squads. A good starting point is Archie MacPherson's "Adventures in the Golden Age" and its chapters about the 1982 World Cup. Over the years, I've read so many biographies/ghost written autobiographies of people involved that it all blends into a blur beyond that. There is a cracking book to be written about the 82 World Cup. I'm not sure what the ideal starting line-up would have been in 82 for the first match and I know it's easy to say this, but lots of us knew at the time that Leighton was clearly a better keeper than Rough, that the McLeish/Miller partnership worked and McGrain was past his best, though I do acknowledge that Rough and McGrain were experienced and Hansen was a big name player for Europe's top club, so I understand Stein's conservatism. Mind you, I couldn't stand Hansen or Archibald as Scotland players and the faith in Alan Brazil was also misplaced. Of the people available, I reckon this lot would have got us off to a better start (and finish) in that campaign: Leighton Narey or Burley Gray McLeish Miller Souness Strachan Wark Dalglish Robertson Jordan.

1982, at that time Stein, for some reason, enjoyed treating Dalglish really badly. Even Stein worshippers in the know admit this and that it affected the already dour Kenny's feelings about playing for Scotland under Stein. Provan was also treated badly by all accounts and thought about abandoning the squad while in Spain. Other players had been horrified at the way Stein sadistically told some of their friends in a squad gathering pre-World Cup (maybe at the England game?) that they weren't going - Ray Steward was one of the victims and it got other players worried about how Stein would handle them. He also had favourites - Souness obviously being numero uno - and the home based players thought he was always going to go for his anglos in key positions at the start (Evans, Hansen) or proteges (McGrain/Rough) no matter how much they proved themselves. He even pissed off his support staff - he asked them who they would advise him to pick for the USSR game and Jim McLean said McLeish and Miller in central defence, only for Stein to admit he had no interest in anyone else's ideas and it had been a wind up.

Definitely McLeod's fault: with Danny McGrain injured, and he coud play superbly at left back if necessary, Donnachie really was the only one in the squad. Frank Gray, for instance, had been named in the initial 40 man squad, but McLeod insisted on taking Gordon McQueen, even though every member of the medical/phsyio staff insisted he would never be fit for any stage of the tournament (McLeod's dream was to play him in the later stages). With Donnachie suspended and Jardine injured for the Peru game, the back four was always going to have someone out of position at left back.

Some really great posts here. I really, really recommend Graham McColl's book "78: How a Nation Lost the World Cup" as the best set of insights into that campaign ever assembled, although the quality of some of the analysis on this thread is just as good. I still think 1982 was, in a very different way, a disappointment: I think Stein had a better squad than any other Scotland manager in a World Cup (though Ormond came closest to a best defined team of 11) but they did not do as well as they could have due to selection decisions and questionable man management, legend though he was. I'd actually like to read a book dedicated to that World Cup campaign (there's one good one about 74 and two about 78). Archie MacPherson has a very good chapter on it in his "Adventures in the Golden Age" but I'd love to know more.

I think one of Ally McLeod's MANY problems was that he couldn't actually pick what would have struck him as his best team for the first match: the numbers indicate he had planned to kick off with: 1 Rough 2 Jardine RB (injured) replaced by Stuart Kennedy 3 Donnachie LB (suspended) replaced by Martin Buchan playing his only game ever at left back 4 Buchan CB (played out of position) replaced by Kenny Burns 5 McQueen CB (injured) replaced by Tam Forsyth 6 Rioch (pretty certain he was not fully fit for the first game) 7 Masson 8 Dalglish 9 Jordan 10 Hartford 11 Johnston Best team available for the Peru game and considering fitness might have been: Blyth Kennedy Buchan Forsyth Burns Souness Gemmill Dalglish Jordan Hartford Robertson (though he was poor against Iran)

Doomed to get off to a bad start defensively in the critical opening match from before the start of the tournament: Danny McGrain and Gordon McQueen being injured were massive, massive blows. Then for the Peru game, Sandy Jardine was also injured and Willie Donnachie was suspended. This meant the inexperienced Stuart Kennedy, good player though he was, was our only available fullback (McLeod and the SFA had taken Gordon McQueen even though all the medics had said he'd never be fit for any stage of the tournament so the squad was minus a defender) and the great Martin Buchan was forced to play at left back for the only time in his career. Rioch wasn't match fit and he and Masson had been off form for months. Bud Johnson was a moron waiting to erupt into a dumpster fire. And all this against the South American champions playing in South America. The team probably put on a better performance against Peru than they should have, actually. Souness should have been brought in for the second game - I can just about understand McLeod's loyalty to Masson, a very, very talented player, for the first game, but no real playmaker in the second match was idiotic. Kind of agree 82 squad should have done better - more talented and sensible with a legendary manager, however, he made some really poor choices in Spain.