VodkaTap
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Posts posted by VodkaTap
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20 minutes ago, Ranaldo Bairn said:
All very fair, but for you to fail to see beyond this "one year experiment" is either naively, or wilfully, missing the obvious next step they will try to take. They simply should have been denied the opportunity. LL clubs accepting such a paltry amount makes it worse.
Nope - I am neither naive nor wilfully missing the obvious step they will try to make.
You have cherrypicked the statement to quote yet you ignore the previous parts where I stated
I do believe that the old firm will want to use this to further their ambitions within the SPFL.
I believe that the colts cannot move from the LL without acceptance by the SPFL clubs.
The colts cannot be foisted into the SPFL by any means without agreement.As to whether they were right to chose to accept the sum that they did is again a decision for the LL clubs to make !!
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For everyone benefit let me make it absolutely clear about my position as regards the decision to allow the colts in the LL
I believe that all fans are perfectly within their rights to make their views known as to the rights or wrongs of this decision.
I believe that it is ultimately for only the LL clubs to vote and make their decision.
I accept when they say that this decision is for 1 year only.
I accept when they say that promotion and relegation will be unaffected by their participation.I believe that any possible continuation after this year will mean that, after examination of this experiment, more discussion and another vote will again be needed by the LL clubs.
I do believe that the old firm will want to use this to further their ambitions within the SPFL.
I believe that the colts cannot move from the LL without acceptance by the SPFL clubs.
The colts cannot be foisted into the SPFL by any means without agreement.As can be seen from all of the above, at no time have I expressed a personal opinion as to whether having the colts in the LL is right or wrong.
What I have been arguing for is the right of the LL clubs only to make that decision since it is only the LL clubs that are directly affect by the decision they have taken.
I have already stated my position regarding relegation - the number of places should be increased.
Again tho, only the LL clubs can make a change regarding this but they must recognise the pressure for change is becoming much stronger & the status quo is no longer valid.Hopefully I wont need to respond so much to the various posts !!!
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57 minutes ago, Ginaro said:
"The perceived problem for the LL has always been that they had a variable number of possibilities in how many changes would take place to keep the league at 16."
WTF does this sentence even mean?
ok - just for you I will give you example
HL champion goes to SPFL 2 & team 42 go to LL = LL+1
Having the established principle that league numbers will be kept at 16, how should the LL deal with this possibility ?
Will the EOS, WOS & SOS accept a variable numbers of relegation spots ???
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50 minutes ago, Burnieman said:
You're question about disparity is absolutely irrelevant (but I did point out that the EoS has more licenced members than the LL). As long as the EoS and WoS keep serving up licenced Champions then it has no impact on the LL. Even then, in the very unlikely event that one of them served up an unlicenced Champion then the LL benefit anyway. So it really doesn't matter if there's 2 licenced clubs or 200 below the LL.
Darvel, Auchinleck Talbot, Irvine Meadow & Clydebank will be licenced before the start of the season, there will likely be more come Feb/Mar. That's your main contenders from the WoS Premier with a licence. The EoS Premier will only have 2 unlicenced clubs next season, neither of whom will be top half contenders.
There absolutely should be two promotion spots next season, there is no argument against it.
After all i have said about the number of relegation places - are you expecting to disagree with you ????
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28 minutes ago, Marten said:
Thanks for that. However, I do think that it's not possible to both support the pyramid and this colt team plan (or even support the LL clubs voting on it).
No matter what our views are on the pyramid, the LL clubs have given their indicative vote and will give their final vote on this colts plan shortly.
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25 minutes ago, Honestman1954 said:
Not sure what to make of this:
...“The rules state that in the event of a club north of the Tay being relegated from the SPFL, they join the Highland League, so we’re working on that basis,” he said.
“The bottom line is, the rules state that’s what happens, so we’ll deal with it accordingly.
“Now, if Brechin want to try and do something different, that’s entirely a matter for them. What we’ve got to do is have some sympathy with Brechin.
...“I’m sure they’ve woken up on Monday morning feeling terribly flat. That’s quite a harsh experience they’ve gone through, so you’ve got to give them time to lick their wounds.
“Then we’ll deal with it in as sympathetic manner as possible.”
If Brechin do indeed join the Highland League, it will see the division return to 18 teams...
“We don’t know quite what the time pattern will be,” Houston said.
“I wouldn’t want it to run too long, because we’re at the stage where a lot of the structural preparation for next season has to be put in place quite quickly. We’ll try and deal with it sympathetically, but we can’t wait forever.
“It’s not a problem for us to go back to 18 teams, there’s no difference whatsoever in terms of scheduling for 17 clubs or 18 clubs.”
Sounds like Brechin City are still up to something behind the scenes.
It seems that Brechin are preparing to play in the Highland league.
speaking to BBC’s Sportsound programme following the defeat, Ferguson says a move to the Highland League is the scenario he is expecting.
Ferguson said: “The rules are that we go to the Highland League. That’s how the rules are placed at the moment and that’s what we have got to assume will happen.
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4 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:
No, players who previously would have been released or loaned to lower league clubs will now be kept by the old firm.
So, what you are saying is that lower league clubs are beholden to the old firm.
What I do feel is that is that all clubs should make a greater effort to develop their own players as that leads to a greater affinity to their club.
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7 minutes ago, Burnieman said:
The WoS is irrelevant given they have just joined the Pyramid but even then the main contenders next season will be licenced, and yes this should have been implemented long before now. The EoS has more licenced members than the LL. One promotion place is an absolute joke even when it was only EoS and SoS. I recall it being discussed when the influx from the East Juniors was happening and here we are three years down the line.
The LL are every bit as self-preserving as the SPFL. Your Chairman talks about ventilation and the Pyramid whilst maintaining a bottle neck to preserve current members status, even talking about LL2. Hypocrisy. The bottom half of the LL know what's coming at them, and will do everything they can to strangle it for as long as they can get away with.
However, the LL weren't slow to offer up 2 places to the OF.
Please don't tell the WOS that they are irrelevant - they won't like it !!!
I note that you have completely ignored my challenge to you regarding the current wide disparity
Let me make one thing absolutely clear - I think there should be more relegations places from the LL.
The perceived problem for the LL has always been that they had a variable number of possibilities in how many changes would take place to keep the league at 16.
The problem with the promotion has largely gone now with the large number of licenced clubs available.
When the number of relegation spots increase I have no idea but it can't come soon enough !
The offer to the Colts tho does not affect the above in any way.
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5 minutes ago, Marten said:
I've been pro-pyramid from the start, I don't speak on behalf of Lochee United but I've always given my own opinion. That has always been pro-pyramid on here. Yes, I know people at Lochee United who have been against the pyramid, but I always respectfully disagreed with them. We will be in the pyramid from next season and I'm delighted about that.
I am extremely glad that we are finally moving to a fully inclusive pyramid system for all of the country. It has been far too long in the making.
I wish you and your club well in this new venture.
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5 minutes ago, Marten said:
You clearly don't understand the objections against this, so don't lie by claiming you "get" us...
The difference is that I care about the pyramid, you & your club don't.
You have made you mind up about me and no doubt nothing I can say will change that - but a liar I am not !!
I speak for myself and I certainly don't speak for any club !!
You care about the pyramid ??? when did this start ??? Hopefully your club will start to take part in the pyramid for the first time next season !!!
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Just now, Burnieman said:
There is no "wide disparity" at all. The EoS and WoS will offer up licenced Champions next season, even then it's not an excuse to continue to strangle ventilation from below.
This has been talked about for at least 3 years but still nothing. OF Colts has been talked about for 3 minutes and you're falling over yourselves to roll out the red carpet.
It stinks of self preservation.There is no wide disparity ?? - tell me in numbers exactly how you come to that conclusion ??
Until this year, exactly how many WOS clubs were eligible for promotion ???
Up until now, any change to the number of relegation places would have been to the benefit of the EOS & SOS only.
Is that the 'fair' change you feel would have been acceptable ??
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3 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:
Right, you're not naïve so you understand why lots of people are pretty strongly against this proposal even though it's only for one year at the moment?
Absolutely nobody is saying colts can be promoted next season.
Of course I understand how lots of people are against the principle of letting the colts play in the league system. That view has been been very clear for many years now.
The point I was making is that the colts cannot be promoted any season without general agreement to a change of the rules by ALL concerned.
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4 minutes ago, Marten said:
Come on, if you don't even see that than you've really closed your eyes to any argument against this.
What is being done could long-term be devastating for Scottish lower league football, all for just a tiny bit of cash this year. The people/clubs supporting this deserve all the criticism they get. I now wouldn't mind if some of the clubs supporting this go bust, that's how much I despise what they have done.
That statement has lots of bluster and angst - but no facts to back it up.
I do get how you feel about this decision - but i don't accept the inevitability of what might happen next
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2 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:
I'm not saying or suggesting that it's inevitable at all. I'm saying that you'd have to be incredibly naïve not to see that the current proposal is meant to be a first step in getting colts into the SPFL on a permanent basis. Every single action in support of that eventual goal should be opposed if people don't want to see colts permanently in the leagues.
I am certainly not naive !
From the colts perspective, I am sure they would like to think it is a first step.
Whether you like it or not - this experiment is for one year only. What happens after that will be the subject of another vote.
Could the colts be promoted ? - let the Pyramid playoff rules answer that
- Any amendment to these Pyramid Play-Off Rules must be agreed by each of the Scottish FA, SPFL, SHFL and SLFL prior to it becoming effective.
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3 minutes ago, Burnieman said:
I wonder if those so keen to accept OF Colts into the LL will be equally as keen to submit or support a proposal for more relegation/promotion spots into the LL from next season.
After all, the LL Chairman is very keen on ventilation.
This is where LL votes have a direct impact on the rest of the Pyramid below, but they appear too busy with OF Colts.I agree that is a totally different subject and it must inevitably happen.
Remember tho, right now we have a wide disparity between eligible clubs for promotion between EOS & WOS.
Once that improves, as it will very soon, then am sure relegation & promotion places will increase.
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1 minute ago, Marten said:
Considering the undeniable fact that this undermines the integrity of the pyramid and the potential of this to affect other leagues long-term it should not just be up to the LL to decide this. If it's allowed to do this by just letting LL clubs vote, then the rules should change. Even just putting this to a vote is a disgrace. This is why outside pressure is not only justified, but highly necessary.
As it stands right now, the only clubs affected by this decision are the LL clubs themselves. Nobody else.
The integrity of the pyramid is affected - how ??
Promotion from the LL is unaffected by this decision how can the SPFL clubs be affected ?
Relegation from the LL will proceed & promotion to the LL will be unaffected by this decision so nothing will change by the decision.
I also fully understand the objection to the principle of admitting the colts to the LL, but that is not something I am advising for or against !!
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33 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:
It depends what you mean by "accept". There aren't going to be hoards of SPFL fans rioting outside Peffermill when Edinburgh Uni play OF colts (chances are there won't be anyone there). But why would folk accept it as in agreeing with it or not being bothered by it? the LL is part of the pyramid now. It's connected to the SPFL and to the leagues below it. What they do does effect or potentially effect current SPFL clubs so why wouldn't SPFL fans have an opinion on that.
You can keep saying "It's only 1 year" all you like. You know as well as everyone else does that the OF see this as the thin end of the wedge. They're hoping that 1 year in the LL normalises colt teams in the pyramid with the intention of getting them into the SPFL later on. And no doubt the "1 year" after that and after that until nobody cares any more and sees colts in the SPFL as inevitable. Everyone opposed to that should absolutely be making their views pretty clear to the current proposal to stop that happening.
The acceptance part is by the dissenting members of the LL clubs.
LL clubs have given an indicative vote and will have a final vote soon. Whatever the vote is - the majority view will happen. This does not mean it is likely to be popular by the dissenters !!
You keep suggesting that it will inevitably be for more than one year, that it will inevitably continue and that it will inevitably mean the colts will end up in the SPFL.
That is a lot of "inevitable things that MUST happen" when in fact there will be a lot of discussions, votes, and lobbying ( on both sides) that will need to take place before anything more can happen.
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43 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:
The Lowland League isn't a stand alone league. They vote to further the Colts participation or make them members affects the SPFL/WoSFL/EoSFL/SoSFL. Not just the 16 members that would be a part of any vote.
The Lowland has preached about the pyramid to understand well enough how it works.
Please explain how will it affect the other leagues ??
As far I know neither promotion nor relegation will be impacted by the colts being in the league.
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40 minutes ago, Marten said:
No f*cking way this disgrace of a vote should be accepted. I'd fully support as much outside pressure on the LL as possible to force them to withdraw this plan.
You don't like the way the LL clubs have given an indicative vote ? Unfortunately that just tough.
You have every right to pressure all you like, but, at the end of the day It is for the LL clubs only to decide on this matter
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56 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:
Exactly the problem. 16 clubs get to decide what to do and have the potential to affect everyone else. There's limited turnover between the LL and the other leagues. So the same clubs that have proven can be bought will just get bought again.
16 LL clubs vote on what happens within their league only - nothing more !!!
You seem to think the LL have influence on other leagues way more that they have , expect, or are looking for.
Other league clubs will decide what happens within their own leagues and that decision will have nothing to do with whatever happens in the LL.
It the OF colts want to move further then they will have to do their persuading on another set of clubs & fans all over again, just as they have done in the LL.
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45 minutes ago, RiG said:
Do you really, really believe that after one season of this that will be it? If the LL clubs do indeed vote no to continuing with it that there won't be another attempt made to try and get colt sides into the league setup?
TBH, I have no idea what will be the outcome of this experiment. Am sure there will be both good and bad points to come out of it all.
I do agree that the Colts are likely to want to continue & advance this if they can. But it is a democracy & whatever way the LL clubs vote then surely everyone will have to accept the result.
Remember , the important part is that the LL clubs will be voting on what happens within their league only. They can't impose any decision on another league !!!
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42 minutes ago, RiG said:
Erm, we know how this works. Colt teams have already infested the Challenge Cup and ruined what little credibility that tournament had left. Now they've gotten their claws into the league setup as well. Little by little the prospect of colt teams from the OF, and potentially other top tier sides, getting into the league setup and further diluting the competitions that our teams play in becomes more and more of a reality. That's what we are giving a shit about.
I totally understand your concerns but at present It affects the LL clubs for 1 year - nothing more. Any change to that & the clubs will have to vote again either to continue or discontinue the Colts experiment in the LL.
The lower league clubs, and their supporters in the SPFL will get their chance to voice their opinion when it is needed at the right time, in other words, when something is proposed that affects them.
The LL cannot impose any team nor impose changes to promotion on another league !!!
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Congratulations to Kelty - very well done !
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I posted my apology after i realised I had made a mistake and responded to a post that I thought was on the colts thread. I did not respond further as I had no wish to continue to distract the thread that should be about Berwick Rangers.
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Whitehill welfare 2019/20
in East of Scotland Football League
Posted
Very sad news indeed. A genuinely passionate man where HIS team were concerned. If Whitehill were playing, no matter where you were in the ground, you heard him long before you saw him !!
As he has been described by others, truly dedicated, a giant of a man, a legend, yet these hardly seem enough to describe the very special man who gave his all for Whitehill Welfare.
RIP Sir Peter.