Livingston - all the threads merged

[Livi]

57 minutes ago, Freedom Farter said:

Ward took over a club with a large debt. He got that debt down significantly with the promotions and the sale of Dykes. However, it wasn't cleared completely and he knew staying in the Premiership was the only way to do so. He didn't have the money to both fund a Premiership standard squad plus stay in profit to keep chipping away at the remaining debt. So he tried to sell to somebody who did, in 2020 when the going was good. However, certain other shareholders thought they could get a better offer in future so blocked it. Then came covid, Top Six was twice missed and no more Dykes-like bonanza player sales have materialised. So now the club is a much harder sell which is why McIlvogue was the only offer, a very uninspiring one. Yet it still got blocked anyway by those same board members who've been blocking takeover bids since 2020.

Livi here keeps repeating that Ward hasn't put any money into the club. Good. I don't want the club bankrolled, that's a recipe for disaster. It's likely that what Ward imagined was that whoever took over would begin with a cash injection to clear the debt but no more funding would be required after that, as the sustainable financial model under Ward would be continued with.

Now, its important to note that the sustainable financial model wasn't followed for the two seasons prior to this one. Given no takeover bid was going to be possible due to Hogarth and others blocking it, Ward instead sought to get the debt cleared through increased revenue from on-field success. The team had finished Top Six for two seasons straight. The idea will've been that pushing to get into Europe (finishing fifth) was realistic. I think it was and Ward speculating to accumulate there was a risk, as that strategy always is, but a risk with fairly sound logic. It didn't work. The team lost Top Six in the final minute of the final match to Motherwell, who instead came fifth and earned the revenue from that European participation. Ward gave it one more try, last season, and again the target was missed in the last match (the defeat away to Dundee Utd). Martindale ultimately failed with these on-pitch results and unfortunately wasn't able to fulfil his part of the bargain.

This season it has been a return to the sustainable financial model but relegation is very possible.

You say this and about all these savings yet  on Wards watch he has overseen over £1.2m of losses in the last 2yrs. Please don't blame other factors. 

My point around investment  is to "own" an SPFL club you need to put your hand in your pocket. . Point me to any other SPFL owner who hasn't 

If you really want to see Livi FC on a sustainable financial footing as you say in your post then let Livi FC be open and transparent around its income and expenditure.  Anyone suggesting anything else is fuelling the secrecy.

 

    

 

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Livi

[Dav nan Gael]

2 hours ago, DiegoDiego said:

Honestly, you seem as obsessed with his obsession as he seems obsessed with Livi/Meadowbank.

Who are you,the P&B forum polis ?

[Freedom Farter]

After Massone melted the club down, there was to an extent a free-for-all regarding club ownership which continued for a few years after. That saw some incompetents gain varying amounts of ownership over the club, including well-meaning incompetents. Hogarth is the most public face of that contingent but he'll have backers including other shareholders. They blocked the takeover bid in 2020 and subsequent ones probably for a couple of reasons. Firstly, they thought they could get a better offer. That was extremely stupid. Roger was on here the other day defending those decisions because Dumbarton sold for more. Well Dumbarton was a land sale because they own the land their stadium is built on. LFC own no land and own no stadium. The other reason is that these folk have egos. Owning LFC will've become a part of their identity. Look at Hogarth calling himself saviour of the club in that screenshot. They refused to give that up even for the good of the club.

So we're currently headed for the Championship with a similar debt level to the 17/18 season before promotion. That's six years of good work, all for nothing. I blame the greedy idiots who blocked the takeover and investment attempts. As for them, they blame it all on Ward and Martindale. This lost court case to Hogarth isn't the gotcha their camp think it is. There was good reason to pursue Hogarth, he had been arrested over his actions. Maybe due to lack of funds, Ward hired the cheapest lawyers and they made a shit job of it, I don't know. Regardless, to focus on this (which Hogarth caused with his behaviour anyway) rather than on the demented intransigence of the board members who blocked the previous investment attempts, is to miss the wider picture. 

[Freedom Farter]

1 hour ago, Livi said:

My point around investment  is to "own" an SPFL club you need to put your hand in your pocket. . Point me to any other SPFL owner who hasn't 

That he's unable to is surely why he has kept trying to pass the club on.

[Livi]

2 minutes ago, Freedom Farter said:

That he's unable to is surely why he has kept trying to pass the club on.

Why not pass it on in its entirety rather than half pass it on. 
 

we can all agree the sale in September was not a sale. Even before Hogarth took any action this month the club had not changed hands legally.
 

 

[Livi]

6 minutes ago, Freedom Farter said:

After Massone melted the club down, there was to an extent a free-for-all regarding club ownership which continued for a few years after. That saw some incompetents gain varying amounts of ownership over the club, including well-meaning incompetents. Hogarth is the most public face of that contingent but he'll have backers including other shareholders. They blocked the takeover bid in 2020 and subsequent ones probably for a couple of reasons. Firstly, they thought they could get a better offer. That was extremely stupid. Roger was on here the other day defending those decisions because Dumbarton sold for more. Well Dumbarton was a land sale because they own the land their stadium is built on. LFC own no land and own no stadium. The other reason is that these folk have egos. Owning LFC will've become a part of their identity. Look at Hogarth calling himself saviour of the club in that screenshot. They refused to give that up even for the good of the club.

So we're currently headed for the Championship with a similar debt level to the 17/18 season before promotion. That's six years of good work, all for nothing. I blame the greedy idiots who blocked the takeover and investment attempts. As for them, they blame it all on Ward and Martindale. This lost court case to Hogarth isn't the gotcha their camp think it is. There was good reason to pursue Hogarth, he had been arrested over his actions. Maybe due to lack of funds, Ward hired the cheapest lawyers and they made a shit job of it, I don't know. Regardless, to focus on this (which Hogarth caused with his behaviour anyway) rather than on the demented intransigence of the board members who blocked the previous investment attempts, is to miss the wider picture. 

sorry many fans don't buy the Ward saviour card. He is part of the problem not the saviour.

Ward was not on the scene in the Rankine / McDougall / Nixon era - think he might have been a club sponsor thats it. Rankine has a lot to answer for.

Ward has over seen over £1.2m of losses  and lets be frank he's hardly been transparent with the small band of supporters that are left at Livi FC.

 

[Freedom Farter]

1 minute ago, Livi said:

sorry many fans don't buy the Ward saviour card. He is part of the problem not the saviour.

Ward was not on the scene in the Rankine / McDougall / Nixon era - think he might have been a club sponsor thats it. Rankine has a lot to answer for.

Ward has over seen over £1.2m of losses  and lets be frank he's hardly been transparent with the small band of supporters that are left at Livi FC.

 

I'm aware of the anti-Ward contingent, I referenced them above.

What do you want to see happen? Ward to leave and then what?

[Livi]

5 minutes ago, Freedom Farter said:

I'm aware of the anti-Ward contingent, I referenced them above.

What do you want to see happen? Ward to leave and then what?

It's not anti Ward its more like Ward is not part of the solution.

I would love everyone involved to agree on a way forward & to strike a deal that see's Livi FC future secured (no matter what division)  This would save massively on the legal fees.

Part of that deal for Ward, Martindale to leave and the club put into new ownership thats engaging and transparent. 

I appreciate i am living in cukoo land expecting that to happen. You'll no doubt disagree with that. 

[Freedom Farter]

1 hour ago, Livi said:

You say this and about all these savings yet  on Wards watch he has overseen over £1.2m of losses in the last 2yrs. Please don't blame other factors. 

For seasons 21/22 and 22/23 he over budgeted. There was reasonable logic to take that risk but it was still a risk and you don't do that. He isn't free from blame.

[Livi]

12 minutes ago, Freedom Farter said:

For seasons 21/22 and 22/23 he over budgeted. There was reasonable logic to take that risk but it was still a risk and you don't do that. He isn't free from blame.

You're forgetting Martindale in all this.

It's unhealthy to have  Ward, Cullen and Martindale  running the place. 

[Freedom Farter]

11 minutes ago, Livi said:

I would love everyone involved to agree on a way forward & to strike a deal that see's Livi FC future secured (no matter what division)

Nobody prioritises playing division as a stand alone factor. You keep repeating that like Livi fans are all glory hunters other than you. The problem has always been the debt, the debt has always been everybody's primary concern, and playing division has only every mattered because its inherently related to solving the debt issue.

The McDougall era was a disaster and Ward inherited a club saddled with a huge debt. Ward oversaw remarkable on-field success which hugely ate into that debt. However, it hadn't yet cleared it and so Ward took a risk aimed at clearing the remaining debt (having tried other options first such as looking for new owners or investors but been thwarted in those attempts). The risk didn't work and has now backfired. It remains the case, though, that the risk wouldn't have been taken were it not for the pressure of trying to clear the debt.

The club was not in some great position pre-Ward. It had been ran terribly prior to him and the lasting damage from that previous era of mismanagement has hamstrung Ward for his entire time in charge. The club is still suffering now from legacy issues dating back to the Nixon/McDougall/Rankine reign.

[Livi La Vida Loca]

I'm in no way anti Ward but to budget for finishing top 6 two seasons in a row was utterly stupid in my opinion. It was obviously a financial decision but any other manager who bottled top six like Martindale did would've been punted as well. Again not saying he should have been punted but another weird decision along with the top six budgeting.

Aiming for 10th and unearthing players to be sold on should have continued to be the plan rather than aiming higher up the league. 

[Freedom Farter]

9 minutes ago, Livi La Vida Loca said:

I'm in no way anti Ward but to budget for finishing top 6 two seasons in a row was utterly stupid in my opinion. It was obviously a financial decision but any other manager who bottled top six like Martindale did would've been punted as well. Again not saying he should have been punted but another weird decision along with the top six budgeting.

Aiming for 10th and unearthing players to be sold on should have continued to be the plan rather than aiming higher up the league. 

Agreed. It was very stupid.

As for Martindale, I always remember how he dropped Omeonga for Sean Kelly for that fateful Motherwell match. This was back when Sean Kelly had only played about twice at centre mid too and Omeonga had been one of our best players that season. We used to take the lead in matches then keep the ball well to take the sting out the opposition attempts to mount a comeback, Omeonga was key in our ability to do that. We'd have won that match had he been picked.

[Livi]

1 hour ago, Freedom Farter said:

Nobody prioritises playing division as a stand alone factor. You keep repeating that like Livi fans are all glory hunters other than you. The problem has always been the debt, the debt has always been everybody's primary concern, and playing division has only every mattered because its inherently related to solving the debt issue.

The McDougall era was a disaster and Ward inherited a club saddled with a huge debt. Ward oversaw remarkable on-field success which hugely ate into that debt. However, it hadn't yet cleared it and so Ward took a risk aimed at clearing the remaining debt (having tried other options first such as looking for new owners or investors but been thwarted in those attempts). The risk didn't work and has now backfired. It remains the case, though, that the risk wouldn't have been taken were it not for the pressure of trying to clear the debt.

The club was not in some great position pre-Ward. It had been ran terribly prior to him and the lasting damage from that previous era of mismanagement has hamstrung Ward for his entire time in charge. The club is still suffering now from legacy issues dating back to the Nixon/McDougall/Rankine reign.

You write as if it was Wards club.  In terms of the  complicated owner set up and as far as i can understand it. He owns  nothing. He is simply a director of the holding company in which the shareholders own.  I think thats fundamental to the position the club finds its self today where the factions are all wrestling for control and Ward and Martindale don't have full control.
 

 If thats the case why would Ward and Martindale not just walk away & pass it back to the shareholders (which is more than just Hogarth) 
 

There is no doubt in the past that Rankine has pulled the strings down  Almondvale way for a long, long time then something changed and the balance of power shifted and Ward was part of all that mystery for long time when it seemed all was rosy between the fractions. He was even happy to sit week after week next to Bursken's (who should never have been near Livi FC IMO) yet in a news article said he inherited him really? 
 

This is not anti Ward its a we need to clear the decks.

 

i guess we will never agree as i want change and you are pro the current regime.

 

[Livi La Vida Loca]

1 hour ago, Freedom Farter said:

Agreed. It was very stupid.

As for Martindale, I always remember how he dropped Omeonga for Sean Kelly for that fateful Motherwell match. This was back when Sean Kelly had only played about twice at centre mid too and Omeonga had been one of our best players that season. We used to take the lead in matches then keep the ball well to take the sting out the opposition attempts to mount a comeback, Omeonga was key in our ability to do that. We'd have won that match had he been picked.

Aye over the years I've always questioned decisions from Martindale but usually he's followed it up with some good ones however of late he's been making consistently baffling decisions and shows no signs of changing his mindset which is worrying as he's either too stubborn or run out of good ideas. 

[CambieBud]

Firstly this is a genuine question. From the outside looking in, it appears that Livingston and Martindale in particular thought that Nouble would be another cash cow like Dykes. Is it not the case that this season was derailed by no bids coming in for Nouble?

[Livi La Vida Loca]

6 minutes ago, CambieBud said:

Firstly this is a genuine question. From the outside looking in, it appears that Livingston and Martindale in particular thought that Nouble would be another cash cow like Dykes. Is it not the case that this season was derailed by no bids coming in for Nouble?

It's not been the whole issue by any means but it's absolutely played it's part. Any cash we potentially made wouldn't have just been thrown at replacements but it would have helped improve the squad for sure. 

Martindale / the board put an unrealistic price tag on him which hasn't helped and now to the detriment of the team Martindale has only ever dropped Nouble due to injury when in reality he's been absolutely rubbish and half arsed everything so doesn't deserve to be on the pitch. Martindale persists with him though presumably to keep him in the shop window with the hope of a small fee come January which has been hard to watch with with likes of St. Kelly, Anderson and Bradley left on the bench. 

Would add Martindale has changed our system and it doesn't suit Nouble which may have affected his form but he should not be getting anywhere near as many minutes as he's had on current form. 

[Livi]

16 hours ago, Freedom Farter said:

Ward took over a club with a large debt. He got that debt down significantly with the promotions and the sale of Dykes. However, it wasn't cleared completely and he knew staying in the Premiership was the only way to do so. He didn't have the money to both fund a Premiership standard squad plus stay in profit to keep chipping away at the remaining debt. So he tried to sell to somebody who did, in 2020 when the going was good. However, certain other shareholders thought they could get a better offer in future so blocked it. Then came covid, Top Six was twice missed and no more Dykes-like bonanza player sales have materialised. So now the club is a much harder sell which is why McIlvogue was the only offer, a very uninspiring one. Yet it still got blocked anyway by those same board members who've been blocking takeover bids since 2020.

Livi here keeps repeating that Ward hasn't put any money into the club. Good. I don't want the club bankrolled, that's a recipe for disaster. It's likely that what Ward imagined was that whoever took over would begin with a cash injection to clear the debt but no more funding would be required after that, as the sustainable financial model under Ward would be continued with.

Now, its important to note that the sustainable financial model wasn't followed for the two seasons prior to this one. Given no takeover bid was going to be possible due to Hogarth and others blocking it, Ward instead sought to get the debt cleared through increased revenue from on-field success. The team had finished Top Six for two seasons straight. The idea will've been that pushing to get into Europe (finishing fifth) was realistic. I think it was and Ward speculating to accumulate there was a risk, as that strategy always is, but a risk with fairly sound logic. It didn't work. The team lost Top Six in the final minute of the final match to Motherwell, who instead came fifth and earned the revenue from that European participation. Ward gave it one more try, last season, and again the target was missed in the last match (the defeat away to Dundee Utd). Martindale ultimately failed with these on-pitch results and unfortunately wasn't able to fulfil his part of the bargain.

This season it has been a return to the sustainable financial model but relegation is very possible.

Re-reading this post in the cold light of day along with your other posts.

It seems it was everyone else fault for all the problems at Livi and Ward is the golden boy. First it was Rankine, McDougall and Nixon and now it's Hogarth and Ward has been held back.

Yet part of the claim Rankine has on the club i'm pretty sure Ward was party to agreeing that - sure it will come out in Jan's court case.

You also ignore Martindale's part in all this as he is very much part of whats happening upstairs at Livi (re-look at the Lord Braid report) 

We need full regime change at Livi.

 

 

[shibbydoo]

You have a cash gate I assume?

Won't be at home to have a ticket posted to me.

[LIVIFOREVER]

3 hours ago, shibbydoo said:

You have a cash gate I assume?

Won't be at home to have a ticket posted to me.

Nope, never had a cash gate since we came into the Premiership. Think you can get a QR code emailed and just use your phone at the turnstyle to get it scanned.