Tormod Macleod Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Click After having previously made the decision to put Everton into the Sham-Ponce League, potentially at the expense of Liverpool, the English FA are no exerting pressure on UEFA to include Liverpool in next season's competition. That would mean that England would have 5 teams participating in the tournament! In my opinion, Liverpool should have been entered as the Champions at Everton's expense. Whilst this would have been very harsh on Everton, it's not as if they didn't know the situation before the start of the season. There is a precident for this as Real Madrid were entered having finished 5th because they won the European cup in 2002. I have every sympathy with Liverpool but none with the English FA. They want their cake and eat it. If Liverpool are entered by the backdoor, it will be at some wee teams expense no doubt. Doubtless any criticism of the status quo will be directed towards UEFA when the real villains of this peice are the English FA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerwickMad Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 I dont think the FA are to bothered either way tbh. But they have to try for Liverpools sake. I fail to see how they are cheats though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mon_The_Bairns Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Everton are far more deserving of it cos they were the 4th best team in england over the whole season. Liverpool should be entered as well if uefa allow it but certainly not at evertons expense. Dont see what the fa could have done different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
froggybinos Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Everton should not in a million years be removed from their Champions League spot. Three major reasons: 1. They finihsed in the initial champions league spot, finishing fourth place. 2. They have already started spening champions league money. 3. Everton were the team arguably most affected by UEFA's decision to ban all English teams from Europe after the Heysal disaster. They won the league twice in the time Englsih sides were banned, and never get the chance to playin Europe. For the last reason alone Everton deserve the poisition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod Macleod Posted May 26, 2005 Author Share Posted May 26, 2005 I dont think the FA are to bothered either way tbh. But they have to try for Liverpools sake. I fail to see how they are cheats though. 523958[/snapback] They knew very well what they were doing. Perhaps cheats is a bit strong but they are certainly chancers. Everton are far more deserving of it cos they were the 4th best team in england over the whole season. Liverpool should be entered as well if uefa allow it but certainly not at evertons expense. Dont see what the fa could have done different. 523995[/snapback] 4th best? Big wowee! Liverpool are defending champions! Surely that ought to count for more than finishing 4th? Liverpool should not be entered as well as that would give England 5 teams in next seasons' tournament which would be 3 more than they ought to have. The FA could have made a decision (preferably the correct/other one) and stuck to it. For them to now turn round and start lobbying for Liverpool to be entered at someone else's expense is underhand. Everton should not in a million years be removed from their Champions League spot. Three major reasons:1. They finihsed in the initial champions league spot, finishing fourth place. 2. They have already started spening champions league money. 3. Everton were the team arguably most affected by UEFA's decision to ban all English teams from Europe after the Heysal disaster. They won the league twice in the time Englsih sides were banned, and never get the chance to playin Europe. For the last reason alone Everton deserve the poisition. 524114[/snapback] 1. There is a clear precident of which Everton would've been well aware prior to the start of the season which I alluded to earlier in the thread. Not to mention the precident of the champions always having been allowed to defend the trophy since it begun, this cannot be said of qualifying from 4th position. With that in mind, it is Liverpool who have been cheated. 2. That is the FA's fault. They took the wrong decision. Incidentally, I'm not advocating the FA reverse their decision. Only that they have the good grace to stick by it despite the fact that it was the wrong decision. 3. I sympathise with Everton. However, as they were cheated in 1986, so now are Liverpool being cheated as their right to qualification has been taken from them by the FA and given to Everton. It's not Everton's fault, it's the FA's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guinness_Alan Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 An argument over whether the team that finished 4th should be in the "Champions" League shows just how much of a farce it is! It should be the champions of each country, along with the holders, and nobody else. They can expand, or play around with, the UEFA Cup if they want, but if they are going to call something the Champions League it should be the champions who are in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod Macleod Posted May 26, 2005 Author Share Posted May 26, 2005 Totally agree Alan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musketeer Gripweed Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 I agree as well believe it or not. Its still a great trophy to win though. B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Dent Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Let Liverpool in at the expense of the SPL runners up B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerwickMad Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Personally I think that only the Champions should be in the Champions League. So that would be Chelsea. Liverpool wouldnt even have been playing in this seasons cup. You cant say Everton are taking Liverpools place!! This is bollocks. The rules at the start of the season say top 4 qualify. They finished forth so deserve to be in it. You cant take it away from them now. That would just be a farse and im sure Everton would take the matter to court, and rightly so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cfczoomcfc Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 Dont think Liverpool should get in ... Brazil are having to qqualify for the next World Cup and there the holders Was listening to talksport today and they think Liverpool and Everton should be put in oblivious to the fact that this would mean a team from another country having to drop out there argument being "how should a Maltese or such team have chance to be in and Liverpool arent" well Liverpool have had there chance and blew it by finishing 5th they shouldnt get in and wont get in IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeeGers Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 You cant take Evertons place away from them everyone knew the rules at the start of the season and the team that came 4th in the prem got a champions league spot. However when UEFA told the FA that they could choose between giving the place to Everton or Liverpool if they won the CL the FA chose Everton knowing fine well that they had a much better chance of lobbying for Liverpool inclusion. Liverpool will get in not because they are champions or because of the FA lobbying but because TV companies who own the rights want to see the champions defend the trophy and thats where UEFA make their money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod Macleod Posted May 27, 2005 Author Share Posted May 27, 2005 Personally I think that only the Champions should be in the Champions League. So that would be Chelsea. Liverpool wouldnt even have been playing in this seasons cup.You cant say Everton are taking Liverpools place!! This is bollocks. The rules at the start of the season say top 4 qualify. They finished forth so deserve to be in it. You cant take it away from them now. That would just be a farse and im sure Everton would take the matter to court, and rightly so. 524481[/snapback] Everton are taking Liverpool's place. To say they are not is rediculous. However, it is the fault of the FA and not Everton. There is a clear precident here whereby the team finishing in 4th qualifies provided the winners of that season's competition do not come from the same country and finish outwith the top 4 as happened correctly in the case of Real Madrid and Real Zaragoza. For the last time, I am not advocating taking Everton's place away from them. All I'm saying is that clearly it should never have been promised to tehm by the FA in the first place. If the FA took Everton's place from them and gave it to Liverpool, which obviously they won't, then Everton would be well within their rights to take the FA matter to court. Not on the point of principle that they should be assured qualification having finished 4th but because the FA promised them the place and then took it away. This is all achademic however as we all know they won't. Dont think Liverpool should get in ... Brazil are having to qqualify for the next World Cup and there the holders Was listening to talksport today and they think Liverpool and Everton should be put in oblivious to the fact that this would mean a team from another country having to drop out there argument being "how should a Maltese or such team have chance to be in and Liverpool arent" well Liverpool have had there chance and blew it by finishing 5th they shouldnt get in and wont get in IMO. 524569[/snapback] Brazil shouldn't have to qualify either. The only reasons they do is are financial ones. The revenue generated by Brazil's qualification campaign is too great a loss to South American football so this nonsense was created. It was dressed up as a way of appeasing the Oceania confederation (I think) by giving them a guaranteed place but as is so often the case it was purely a financial decision. You cant take Evertons place away from them everyone knew the rules at the start of the season and the team that came 4th in the prem got a champions league spot. However when UEFA told the FA that they could choose between giving the place to Everton or Liverpool if they won the CL the FA chose Everton knowing fine well that they had a much better chance of lobbying for Liverpool inclusion. Liverpool will get in not because they are champions or because of the FA lobbying but because TV companies who own the rights want to see the champions defend the trophy and thats where UEFA make their money. 524636[/snapback] I totally agree with you. The FA knew exactly what they were doing and are now trying to go back on their decision to shoehorn Liverpool in through the backdoor at anyone's expense. I have to applaud UEFA's stance on this up until now. Uefa communications director William Gaillard said, "The rules are what they are. They were used already once when Real Madrid won...and actually were not among the qualifiers in the Spanish league. Meanwhile, Liverpool chief executive Rick Parry has also made his own plea to Uefa: "Look at the support, the worldwide audience and the game. I think we have to be given a shot. We are worthy champions and I think that's what the world will say." These protestations are being made too late and to the wrong body. It is the FA who have made this ludicrous decision to deny Liverpool as Mr. Gaillard has pointed out. Mr. Parry would have been better served making such protestations at the time the decision was made by the FA FA chief executive Brian Barwick said, "It's an exceptional situation, that follows an exceptional match and which we believe requires an exceptional solution. "What Uefa have, and I sympathise with them to a degree, is a situation where they are faced with not having their own champions in their own competition which is called the Champions League. "I think in its own way that tells its own story. "Liverpool finished outside the top four. I think the FA were right and proper to put the top four into the Champions League. "That's how teams kicked off in August, expecting a top-four finish to give them qualification or pre-qualification and that will not be changed." Firstly Mr. Barwick that is not how the teams kicked off in August. There was a clear precident for this sort of occurence and if the FA have not foreseen this situation then they have quite simply failed in their duty to inform clubs of the rules. For the FA to now be lending it's support to Liverpool's campaign for inclusion when they made the decision to deny them the right to defend the trophy is very bad form indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Follow Follow Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 i feel sorry for Liverpool, but i think Everton deserve it as they were 4th - f**k the fifth place team!! Should Hobs be allowed in - just cause they finished third in the SPL?? No! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bushel o' Bricks Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 I think Everton should definitely be allowed in. The rules that the top 4 would qualify for the Champions League were put in place at the start of the season, and teams below that wouldn't, and both Everton and Liverpool knew that. Everton finished in the top 4, and Liverpool finished outside it, so Everton deserve to be in the Champions League. Just because it happened with Real Zaragoza and Real Madrid years ago doesn't mean it was right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod Macleod Posted May 29, 2005 Author Share Posted May 29, 2005 But it's about precident here. There is a precident for the 4th place team not being entered if the champions come from that country and finish outwith the top 4. Moreover, there is a historical precident that the champions always be allowed to defend their trophy. To the best of my knowledge, this will be the first time it has not happened. I would suspect that the Madrid/Zaragoza decision was taken for the wrong (financial) reasons. However, that doesn't change the fact that it was the right decision. 4th place deserves nothing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerwickMad Posted May 30, 2005 Share Posted May 30, 2005 4th place deserves nothing! 527734[/snapback] Well thats how Liverpool managed to get there in the first place so.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod Macleod Posted May 30, 2005 Author Share Posted May 30, 2005 I agree. However, fortunately for Liverpool Newcastle didn't win the champions league the season before. Otherwise, had the right decision been taken of course, Liverpool wouldn't even have been in the competition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Poker King Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 Brazil shouldn't have to qualify either. The only reasons they do is are financial ones. The revenue generated by Brazil's qualification campaign is too great a loss to South American football so this nonsense was created. It was dressed up as a way of appeasing the Oceania confederation (I think) by giving them a guaranteed place but as is so often the case it was purely a financial decision. I think it was actually the federations that 'asked' for the holders to go through a qualification campaign. When France were World Cup holders and European Championship holders they never had to play any competitive matches, baring the final tournaments, for about 4 years. I agree that the FA are trying to get out of making the decision here. I think if it was any other team apart from Everton, then the FA would put Liverpool forward for next years Champions League but it's just too difficult for them. Apart from the fact that if England are allowed 5 teams them a team from another country has to drop out, it also messes up the rules that Uefa have in place for making the draw. i.e. you can only have 2 teams from the same country playing on the same night in the inital group stages. I actually think that Everton should play in next years competition. I know that a precident was set with Real Madrid and Real Zarragoza a few years ago but I reckon that was the wrong decision. What this does show is that there is a need for rules to be clear and free from ambiguity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest thefamousphilosifer Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 Liverpool should not be entered as well as that would give England 5 teams in next seasons' tournament which would be 3 more than they ought to have.1. There is a clear precident of which Everton would've been well aware prior to the start of the season which I alluded to earlier in the thread. Not to mention the precident of the champions always having been allowed to defend the trophy since it begun, this cannot be said of qualifying from 4th position. With that in mind, it is Liverpool who have been cheated. 2. That is the FA's fault. They took the wrong decision. Incidentally, I'm not advocating the FA reverse their decision. Only that they have the good grace to stick by it despite the fact that it was the wrong decision. 3. I sympathise with Everton. However, as they were cheated in 1986, so now are Liverpool being cheated as their right to qualification has been taken from them by the FA and given to Everton. It's not Everton's fault, it's the FA's. 524160[/snapback] I agree with all this. The English FA should have came out with a statement saying that if Liverpool won the CL and finished outwith the top 4, then they would take the 4th placed teams place in the CL next year, however the FA clearly want to have 5 English teams in the CL next season and i for one wouldn't allow it. Spain weren't allowed it, so England shouldn't be. An argument over whether the team that finished 4th should be in the "Champions" League shows just how much of a farce it is! It should be the champions of each country, along with the holders, and nobody else.They can expand, or play around with, the UEFA Cup if they want, but if they are going to call something the Champions League it should be the champions who are in it. 524214[/snapback] Exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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