Orange Walk / Scottish Cricket thread

[forever_blue]

The sad fact is that many Rangers fans are now supporters or sympathisers of neo-fascist, ethnically/racially/religiously based hate organisations like bnp, britain first, sdl, edl, national front and loyalist paramilitaries. I've perused rangers hate sites and the rhetoric, philosophy and mindset of many rangers fans is scarcely distinguishable from that used by these groups. Indeed one could call rangers fc the "sporting wing" of these groups. Let's not forget, this is the club that operated a seventy year ethnically-based employment embargo at the insistence of their fans. Rangers engaged in racial profiling almost a decade and a half before the nazis even came to power in Germany, so in many ways they were innovators in this area.

what a load of shite. that is all. the only bit that made any sort of sense was the part where u mentioned some rangers fans latch on to the loyalist paramilitary. the rest was shite.

[LongTimeLurker]

Billy Fullerton was a fascist, that is indisputable. Not in a 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' kind of way, more in a 'I hate people different from me' kind of way. He also apparently started a Glasgow branch of the Ku Klux Klan, when not leading 'The Billy Boys'.

Think you'll find that the KKK thing was John Cormack in Leith. Scotland had its share of nutters during the lurch into right wing extremism that happened globally in the 1930s so it's easy to cherrypick a couple of minor historical footnotes to build your desired Rangers = fascist narrative. No matter how you want to dress this up, however, the reality is that while people in de Valera's Eire were brushing up on their German language skills the UK fought on against the Nazis rather than cutting a deal with Hitler after Dunkirk because of the bigger picture of what was at stake in terms of preserving modern western civilisation from a slide into totalitarian barbarism. That means that the Union Flag in a WWII context at least (different story elsewhere obviously where the Empire is concerned) was a symbol of freedom and hence something that Celtic supporters like James Stokes VC and a large number of deserters from Eire's armed forces had no problem saluting. For many people the Union Flag remains to this day a positive symbol to be proud of because of the legacy of the era that very much shaped modern British identity, i.e. WWII.

Edited June 2, 2014 by LongTimeLurker

[Half Rice Half Chips]

Long time lurker, you should read Max Hasting's biography of Winston Churchill if you believe the children's fairytale that Britain entered war with Germany to preserve democracy. Why do you think it took the USA two and a half years to enter the war? Indeed they may never have done so were it not for Pearl Harbour (they may even have avoided the European war altogether if Hitler hadn't declared war on them). Americans didn't want to sacrifice potentially millions of their men to preserve an imperialistic British empire, an empire which in their mind was the antithesis of what their republic stood for. This whole "preserving democracy" lark came out towards the end of the war.

[Half Rice Half Chips]

what a load of shite. that is all. the only bit that made any sort of sense was the part where u mentioned some rangers fans latch on to the loyalist paramilitary. the rest was shite.

There is a large cross over in support between all those organisations. Loyalist paramilitaries would be welcomed like heroes at a bnp or nf function and vice versa. The slogans, tattoos, paraphernalia and philosophies of these groups are scarcely distinguishable from one another. A supporter of loyalist paramilitaries (as you've admitted some rangers fans are) is a de facto supporter of ethnically-based British neo-fascism.

[The OP]

Think you'll find that the KKK thing was John Cormack in Leith. Scotland had its share of nutters during the lurch into right wing extremism that happened globally in the 1930s so it's easy to cherrypick a couple of minor historical footnotes to build your desired Rangers = fascist narrative. No matter how you want to dress this up, however, the reality is that while people in de Valera's Eire were brushing up on their German language skills the UK fought on against the Nazis rather than cutting a deal with Hitler after Dunkirk because of the bigger picture of what was at stake in terms of preserving modern western civilisation from a slide into totalitarian barbarism. That means that the Union Flag in a WWII context at least (different story elsewhere obviously where the Empire is concerned) was a symbol of freedom and hence something that Celtic supporters like James Stokes VC and a large number of deserters from Eire's armed forces had no problem saluting. For many people the Union Flag remains to this day a positive symbol to be proud of because of the legacy of the era that very much shaped modern British identity, i.e. WWII.

Presumably the reason we got in bed with Stalin was to prevent the slide into totalitarian barbarism?

Rangers supporters do have a propensity for extreme right views. Billy Fullerton is widely reported to have set up a Glasgow branch of the KKK. Rangers supporters do sing songs which refer to his sectarian gang.

Irish Republicans got into bed with fascism in WW2 because their warped view was that 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' but it doesn't negate the fact that Irish Republicanism is largely a socialist movement. It seems mental to argue that Celtic supporters don't have a tendency towards the far left and Rangers supporters don't have a tendency towards the far right.

[forever_blue]

Presumably the reason we got in bed with Stalin was to prevent the slide into totalitarian barbarism?

Rangers supporters do have a propensity for extreme right views. Billy Fullerton is widely reported to have set up a Glasgow branch of the KKK. Rangers supporters do sing songs which refer to his sectarian gang.

Irish Republicans got into bed with fascism in WW2 because their warped view was that 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' but it doesn't negate the fact that Irish Republicanism is largely a socialist movement. It seems mental to argue that Celtic supporters don't have a tendency towards the far left and Rangers supporters don't have a tendency towards the far right.

ahh those far left celtic fans who bombarded a high profile black rangers player with banana's on his old firm debut ?

[Half Rice Half Chips]

Sorry forever blue, did you also disagree with my assertion that rangers operated a 70 year ethnic profiling policy?

[LongTimeLurker]

Long time lurker, you should read Max Hasting's biography of Winston Churchill if you believe the children's fairytale that Britain entered war with Germany to preserve democracy...

What I focused on was the immediate aftermath of the fall of France rather than what happened in 1939 and you appear to have missed some of the nuanced points in my post over the Union Flag only symbolizing freedom in the narrow context related to that. When the crunch came and a deal could have been done after the military disaster in France (Hitler didn't press home his advantage at Dunkirk with a view to achieving that) when Hitler still had a non-aggression pact with Stalin in the east, the UK kept fighting even though people like Churchill knew it would probably ultimately mean the end of Empire.

[MikeyWellFan]

Looks like they are playing the sash out in Lisbon now, no sanctity left it seems.

Shouting 'f**k the pope' when you're from Portugal and 99% likely to be Catholic.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

Preview of the games next week at Dumfries.

http://www.cricketscotland.com/news/article/preview-reivers-v-highlanders/

What's the weather doing down there?

[LongTimeLurker]

Shouting 'f**k the pope' when you're from Portugal and 99% likely to be Catholic.

^^^A very Scottish mentality. Portugal has a "red belt" in the south from about Lisbon down to just north of the Algarve where most of the population had strong Communist or Socialist sympathies by the mid-20th century and often very much rejected the RC church. Benfica traditionally draws a lot of its support from people from that sort of background. Italy has something similar north of Rome around about Tuscany in the former Papal States. Hence why clubs like Livorno and Empoli (Ultras are called Rangers funnily enough) are very left leaning. In most of southern Europe the emergence of the modern nation state was due to the emergence of liberal and left wing anti-clerical movements, so people don't equate Roman Catholicism with national identity in the way that happens in the island of Ireland or in countries like Croatia and Poland where there were other national groups like Serbs and Ukrainians that spoke much the same language but traditionally went to a different type of church.

[MikeyWellFan]

^^^A very Scottish mentality. Portugal has a "red belt" in the south from about Lisbon down to just north of the Algarve where most of the population had strong Communist or Socialist sympathies by the mid-20th century and often very much rejected the RC church. Benfica traditionally draws a lot of its support from people from that sort of background. Italy has something similar north of Rome around about Tuscany in the former Papal States. Hence why clubs like Livorno and Empoli (Ultras are called Rangers funnily enough) are very left leaning. In most of southern Europe the emergence of the modern nation state was due to the emergence of liberal and left wing anti-clerical movements, so people don't equate Roman Catholicism with national identity in the way that happens in the island of Ireland or in countries like Croatia and Poland where there were other national groups like Serbs and Ukrainians that spoke much the same language but traditionally went to a different type of church.

I imagine 'f**k the pope' to be quite a popular chant on the terraces of Livorno and Benfica.

[~~~]

ahh those far left celtic fans who bombarded a high profile black rangers player with banana's on his old firm debut ?

Let's not forget the Rangers captain who racially abused a black Dortmund player.

Swings and roundabouts

[forever_blue]

Let's not forget the Rangers captain who racially abused a black Dortmund player.

Swings and roundabouts

i am not the one claiming us to be some sort of socialist left wing movement ?

[Jacksgranda]

Let's not forget the Rangers captain who racially abused a black Dortmund player.

Swings and roundabouts

What did he call him - "A dirty H*n"?

[Half Rice Half Chips]

If Che Guevara were alive today I think we can safely say that Rangers FC would be towards the bottom of the list of football clubs he'd support. He hated imperialism.

[forever_blue]

If Che Guevara were alive today I think we can safely say that Rangers FC would be towards the bottom of the list of football clubs he'd support. He hated imperialism.

and if william wallace was alive the day he might support england in the world cup .

[LongTimeLurker]

If Che Guevara were alive today I think we can safely say that Rangers FC would be towards the bottom of the list of football clubs he'd support. He hated imperialism.

...but if you are an Italian from Empoli who is fiercely anti-clerical maybe all you see is that they are anti-RC church and we are anti-RC church, they play in blue we play in blue, or maybe there's no connection at all I'm not sure to be honest? In Scotland the RC church cosied up in a big way to the main left wing party with the trade-off being RC schools guaranteed in exchange for a block RC vote, so the Kelly and White families that traditionally controlled Celtic before the mars bars started flying could comfortably accommodate left wing politics with Roman Catholicism but in southern Europe an involvement with a socialist party often led to excommunication:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentiloni_pact

Different set of historical circumstances so you can't easily apply what seems normal to people in the west of Scotland to what happens somewhere like Portugal or Italy.

[~~~]

What did he call him - "A dirty H*n"?

A black barstewart, tried to deny it. Before getting caught and surprisingly no action taken by the club for it

[LongTimeLurker]

...and where are you going with this? Lorenzo Amoruso isn't the most Lowland Scots Presbyterian sounding of names so odds on it had more to do with expediency and needing him playing at his best in the next game rather than anything deeply sinister about the traditional culture of the club. It was Rangers who signed Mark Walters after all and way before that Walter Tull:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Tull