BerwickMad Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 It isn't. No one identifies themselves as being from their voting constituency. It's an administrative device nothing more. You can't compare it to a countryErm, I can. A country isn't a block vote and neither is a constituency. Neither a country nor a constituency can claim to represent the views of everyone in it. You can't claim to be any more hard done by than me as we both have a single vote at a general election. Dividing people simply by nationality and saying 'this is what we believe' is pathetic nationalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Erm, I can. A country isn't a block vote and neither is a constituency. Neither a country nor a constituency can claim to represent the views of everyone in it. You can't claim to be any more hard done by than me as we both have a single vote at a general election. Dividing people simply by nationality and saying 'this is what we believe' is pathetic nationalism.Good job I didn't do any of those things then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 It isn't. No one identifies themselves as being from their voting constituency. It's an administrative device nothing more. You can't compare it to a country Why not? The Border is a fairly arbitrary concept albeit one that's existed for hundreds of years. The principle is valid. Fundamentally you will never get true self determination. It is a fact for instance that contrary to the Yes mantra Dumfries & Galloway very regularly gets the Westminster government it votes for. In fact the most unrepresented Dumfries & Galloway has probably ever been is by the present Scottish Parliament where we absolutely are being represented by a Government we did not vote for. Now whilst I appreciate the notion of Dumfries & Galloway then campaigning for independence from rScotland is farcical if you were to say substitute Shetland for Dumfries & Galloway it becomes less farcical, both in principle (Island nation, geographically remote from the mainland) and in economic terms (inevitable oil riches no matter how you argue the split of territorial waters). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerwickMad Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Well I was disputing the 'Scotland doesn't get what it votes for' shit, so what you arguing about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerwickMad Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 I don't see why country becomes the dominant focus for identity anyway. I'm not a nationalist, as I've said, and I identify with being from Tweedmouth before even Berwick, never mind Northumberland or England. If I was ever stupid enough to talk about who 'we' voted for, it wouldn't be nationality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Why not? The Border is a fairly arbitrary concept albeit one that's existed for hundreds of years. The principle is valid. Fundamentally you will never get true self determination. It is a fact for instance that contrary to the Yes mantra Dumfries & Galloway very regularly gets the Westminster government it votes for. In fact the most unrepresented Dumfries & Galloway has probably ever been is by the present Scottish Parliament where we absolutely are being represented by a Government we did not vote for. Now whilst I appreciate the notion of Dumfries & Galloway then campaigning for independence from rScotland is farcical if you were to say substitute Shetland for Dumfries & Galloway it becomes less farcical, both in principle (Island nation, geographically remote from the mainland) and in economic terms (inevitable oil riches no matter how you argue the split of territorial waters). They're not constituencies, they are geographical regions. The argument over where to draw the line between regions and countries is totally different to comparing one constituency with a country. Well I was disputing the 'Scotland doesn't get what it votes for' shit, so what you arguing about?Your comparison of one electoral constituency with an entire country Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliche Guevara Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 I don't see why country becomes the dominant focus for identity anyway. I'm not a nationalist, as I've said, and I identify with being from Tweedmouth before even Berwick, never mind Northumberland or England. If I was ever stupid enough to talk about who 'we' voted for, it wouldn't be nationality. Funny you didn't put that in your very specific list of places in your Location. I think you should learn the difference between Nation and Nationality and also stop trying to be so 'right-on' about Nationalism, which you clearly don't understand. Additionally, the original point you picked up incorrectly was the Tories would get voted into power in England due to people in England voting for them, as opposed to people in Scotland not voting for someone else. That's a fact and a perfectly reasonable point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerwickMad Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 They're not constituencies, they are geographical regions. The argument over where to draw the line between regions and countries is totally different to comparing one constituency with a country. Your comparison of one electoral constituency with an entire country Constituency is just an example as you vote for constituency MPs so you gan an idea of what people are voting for around you. It was just an example to show how stupid the 'we don't get what we vote for' argument is. I go to the gym every night with my Scottish pal from Eyemouth. We don't need to define each other by nationality or constituency or whatever. We both have a single vote at the general election. What 'England' votes for and what 'Scotland' votes for is totally irrelevant to how well we are represented in government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 They're not constituencies, they are geographical regions. The argument over where to draw the line between regions and countries is totally different to comparing one constituency with a country. I don't see why it's totally different. It's all about a fairly arbitrary line drawn on a map. As I said, logically the only way for true self determination to exist would be if every person of voting age had their own country. Once it goes above one person it's never self determination. I'm not a supporter of Independence but I recognise that there are some perfectly valid conceptual reasons why many people are. That's fine. The argument that without it we don't get the Westminster government we vote for though is not one of them. It's just such a weak point, particularly as Scotland, which is traditionally Labour voting, pretty regularly gets exactly that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerwickMad Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Funny you didn't put that in your very specific list of places in your Location. I think you should learn the difference between Nation and Nationality and also stop trying to be so 'right-on' about Nationalism, which you clearly don't understand. Additionally, the original point you picked up incorrectly was the Tories would get voted into power in England due to people in England voting for them, as opposed to people in Scotland not voting for someone else. That's a fact and a perfectly reasonable point. I understand nationalism perfectly thanks. I've studied it and written a dissertation on it. I think it's poisonous, creates division and emphasises difference. It doesn't matter how many people run around with a smile on their face releasing balloons and shit pretending it's positive. I've never seen Scotland so divided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speckled tangerine Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 I understand nationalism perfectly thanks. I've studied it and written a dissertation on it. I think it's poisonous, creates division and emphasises difference. It doesn't matter how many people run around with a smile on their face releasing balloons and shit pretending it's positive. I've never seen Scotland so divided. "I've written a dissertation". Settle petal. That makes you view no more or less valid as the next guy. Seeing as reading between the lines with that outburst we can arrange some sort of Yugoslav-style ethnic swap? All the "proud Scots" and others who despise the thought of self determination and social justice can swap with the many, many others from around the UK who buy into that vision, but have f**k all chance of realising it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~ Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 I understand nationalism perfectly thanks. I've studied it and written a dissertation on it. I think it's poisonous, creates division and emphasises difference. It doesn't matter how many people run around with a smile on their face releasing balloons and shit pretending it's positive. I've never seen Scotland so divided. If you really believe this referendum is about nationalism, then you clearly have't been paying attention Shite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Cort's Hamstring Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 You do know the Tories came 4th in Scotland at the last GE You can't compare the SNP being voted in as government within Holyrood [pedant] Most Scots didn't vote for the the SNP at Holyrood either [/pedant] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerwickMad Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 If you really believe this referendum is about nationalism, then you clearly have't been paying attention Shite When someone is moaning about Scotland not getting what it votes for, that's nationalism. If it isn't, then I'd assume these Yes people searching for self determination and more accountability will be looking to divide Scotland up eventually, as 'the South of Scotland' thinks differently to Glasgow and Shetland thinks differently to Fife."BUT THEY ARENT COUNTRIES!!!". Nationalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Jean King Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 This is one thing I don't understand about the anti-Tory rhetoric of some in the Yes campaign. They claim they hate the Tories and want to kick them out of Scotland. Surely, removing Scotland from the UK will make it much easier for the Tories to be elected to Westminster in future. It seems an odd attitude for someone who hates Tories to reward them with more power in future. There's also the suggestion that removing Tories from Scotland will result in a more just society. That may well be true, but the logical flipside of that is that it will result in a much more injust society souht of the border. So they're willing to create a more injust society for 60 million people just so they can have a more just society for the 5 million north of the border? Sounds pretty callous and selfish to me. That simply has to be the least compelling argument to vote no in the thousands of posts on all these threads combined. What a steaming pile of sentimental shite. This vote has nothing to do with England. The result will have consequences either way but this is 100% all about us and no one on either side can reasonably argue otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itzdrk Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 I'm in the Labour being more evil than Conservatives team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 I don't see why it's totally different. It's all about a fairly arbitrary line drawn on a map. As I said, logically the only way for true self determination to exist would be if every person of voting age had their own country. Once it goes above one person it's never self determination. I'm not a supporter of Independence but I recognise that there are some perfectly valid conceptual reasons why many people are. That's fine. The argument that without it we don't get the Westminster government we vote for though is not one of them. It's just such a weak point, particularly as Scotland, which is traditionally Labour voting, pretty regularly gets exactly that. Because you have to draw a line somewhere and the globally accepted line is by country. As you say, self determination, at the level of "self" simply isnt possible, but without some kind of division we would all be voting for a global government. When someone is moaning about Scotland not getting what it votes for, that's nationalism. If it isn't, then I'd assume these Yes people searching for self determination and more accountability will be looking to divide Scotland up eventually, as 'the South of Scotland' thinks differently to Glasgow and Shetland thinks differently to Fife. "BUT THEY ARENT COUNTRIES!!!". Nationalism. Good grief! As I said, you have to draw a line somewhere and that somewhere across the world is country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteRoseKillie Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 That simply has to be the least compelling argument to vote no in the thousands of posts on all these threads combined. What a steaming pile of sentimental shite. This vote has nothing to do with England. The result will have consequences either way but this is 100% all about us and no one on either side can reasonably argue otherwise. Quite agree. In the event of a Yes result, I will be pointing every one of those sixty million that I meet North when they piss and moan about the amoral scumbags running this poor benighted country (England, I mean), and say, "you don't have to put up with their shit. There is an alternative, and your Scots neighbours have shown you the way. Now grow up, grow a pair and vote for the people, not for some miniscule minority of millionaires" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~ Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 When someone is moaning about Scotland not getting what it votes for, that's nationalism. If it isn't, then I'd assume these Yes people searching for self determination and more accountability will be looking to divide Scotland up eventually, as 'the South of Scotland' thinks differently to Glasgow and Shetland thinks differently to Fife. "BUT THEY ARENT COUNTRIES!!!". Nationalism. Again, what a load of shite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Psychosis Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 For the rest of us? We should just accept we have no voice? At Holyrood, the majority of those voting chose SNP to run Scotland. No they didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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