HaikuHibee Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 In terms of helping the poor without hand-outs as appears to be the way forward; is this another step forward in terms of equality? Private schools levels of appeals for exams well above state schools after charging for appeals was introduced doesn't look like progress to me and surely was worth looking at further rather than being dismissed by the FM?: http://www.scotsman.com/news/education/scots-exam-appeal-charges-fail-the-fairness-test-1-3673344 Quoting the Scotsman? So what's their readership at? How long will they last? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubbs Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 We're talking about a £10 fee to cover the cost of the appeal. A real barrier there eh? Or circa £40 for a full review. The question is surely worth looking at - private schools with proportionately over double the number of requests than states schools; with the factor that private school parents can buy a review that state school pupils can't; and with schools faced with decreasing budgets its surely of interest as to how much of a factor money plays in this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubbs Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Quoting the Scotsman? So what's their readership at? How long will they last? Usual ignorant and ill informed 'nothing to see here' attitude. Are you actually denying the basic facts of the story due to the source of the coverage? Are you doubting this was discussed in parliament for instance? Or that the stats are false? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaikuHibee Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Usual ignorant and ill informed 'nothing to see here' attitude. Are you actually denying the basic facts of the story due to the source of the coverage? Are you doubting this was discussed in parliament for instance? Or that the stats are false? There are no stats there. Well, no stats backing your claims. It's not the point though. What will Labour change? The exam appeal system? I can hardly wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubbs Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 There are no stats there. Well, no stats backing your claims. It's not the point though. What will Labour change? The exam appeal system? They have nothing else? Right so you are now magically ok with the Scotsman as the basic 'source' - its my interpretation at issue - fair enough. But now you are off at a tangent on Labour now - anything but address the core issue. Private schools have more than double the checks that state schools have (proportionately) must at least be worth looking at to ensure there is no inequality. At a state school their budget takes hit for every unsuccessful check, at a private school they can pass the cost directly to the parent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaikuHibee Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Right so you are now magically ok with the Scotsman as the basic 'source' It's a shite report. No stats back up the claims made. It's just Labour spin. But now you are off at a tangent on Labour now - anything but address the core issue. It's the core issue. It's fucking exam appeals. It's not important. At a state school their budget takes hit for every unsuccessful check, at a private school they can pass the cost directly to the parent. That is just not true. All parents can pay the fee. But most don't bother. Private schools have more that double the checks that state schools have must at least be worth looking at. Maybe, I doubt it. The system was clearly clogged, and most appeals fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubbs Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Right so you are now magically ok with the Scotsman as the basic 'source' It's a shite report. No stats back up the claims made. It's just Labour spin. But now you are off at a tangent on Labour now - anything but address the core issue. It's the core issue. It's fucking exam appeals. It's not important. At a state school their budget takes hit for every unsuccessful check, at a private school they can pass the cost directly to the parent. That is just not true. All parents can pay the fee. But most don't bother. Private schools have more that double the checks that state schools have must at least be worth looking at. Maybe, I doubt it. The system was clearly clogged, and most appeals fail. Parents at a state school cannot pay for a check to be done. No stats? 3.6% of appeals at private schools, 1.5 % at state schools. Not even worth looking to see if the cost is a factor, in this the first year of the process? Exams are not important Clearly not to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaikuHibee Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Parents at a state school cannot pay for a check to be done. Yes they can Tubbsy. Double check Labour's press lines. You're spinning it wrong. No stats? 3.6% of appeals at private schools, 1.5 % at state schools. Three quarters still fail. And that is after this fee. Got last year's figures? Exams are not important Clearly not to you. The appeals are not. It looks like schools wasting time. Catchy slogan though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubbs Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Parents at a state school cannot pay for a check to be done. Yes they can Tubbsy. Double check Labour's press lines. You're spinning it wrong. No stats? 3.6% of appeals at private schools, 1.5 % at state schools. Three quarters still fail. And that is after this fee. Got last year's figures? Exams are not important Clearly not to you. The appeals are not. It looks like schools wasting time. Catchy slogan though. I am not basing anything on Labour; state schools do not take payment for appeals. This is the first year of the new system, where basically only the marking is checked. Circa 25% are wrongly marked - that's seems quite big to me. So exams are important but not so important to make sure they are marked correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaikuHibee Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I am not basing anything on Labour; This is Labour spin. It's a complete non-issue. They've nothing to say. Circa 25% are wrongly marked - that's seems quite big to me. That is wrong again. Try 0.25%. These are your stats Tubbs. So exams are important but not so important to make sure they are marked correctly. They're mostly correct. Yet thousands would still appeal. That is the issue. Labour have nothing. No ideals and no vision. So they now try stats. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubbs Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Labour have nothing to do with this; other than highlighting the position, which when brought to the attention of the FM she talked about exam results in general???? You cannot pay for checks in the state sector. If you can then that is an even bigger issue for the SG as it gives the richer parents in state schools an option not available to the poorer ones and within an allegedly free at point of use for all that would be a real issue. But it isn't because you are wrong on this point. Private schools putting in more than double the amount of appeals (proportionately and with a similar degree of success) and where these appeals come at a potential significant cost doesn't look like doing anything for the equality gap. And it looks like rich kids have a further option not available to poorer ones within the new exam system. In circa 25% of cases the appeal was successful; and bearing in mind the format is based only on the marking of the exam itself I think that is quite high? but maybe that is what passes as effective marking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaikuHibee Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 There is a problem with inequality but pissing your pants over this is nonsense. So what will be next? Bathgate shuttle timetable? Nats want to scrap nukes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubbs Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Exams ARE certainly important but those who are in the border of a pass or a fail are extremely unlikely to be the next big thing in Physics or any other subject. We need to stop people appealing IMO. Charging a small fee discourages it. Sounds great to me. We have more important things to spend our Education budget on. Does charging a fee discourage equally across all incomes? Yet again you manage to introduce ignorance to things; its not just about pass/fail, it can be about the grades allocated. Your position that some people don't deserve accurate marks as they will not be the next big thing is truly staggering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubbs Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 As an absolute number of incorrectly marked papers it's very small. This is a nothing story. The moral of this tale to all young children is to avoid grade boundaries at all costs. The less you work, the more you risk being at the boundary between an A and a B or a C and a D. At that point you have a vastly increased chance of inconcsistent or poor marking costing you a grade and your career. You can NEVER get consistent marking. Expecting it is rank stupidity. It's not what you want to hear at a young age but it needs said. The world is a brutal place. Employment is more brutal again. The recruitment process at virtually all large companies is absolutely horrendous. At this age, if you want a career which needs a degree, grades are everything. I'd have this tattooed on the wrist of every young adult entering university. What about consistent access to all aspects of the exam system; that can be achieved and that is what the point is here. No system is perfect you are right and the focus has got to be on hard work and achievement; but that ethos is undermined by a system where money can buy you an extra. The education and exam system is not just there for the high flyers and/or the rich. The issue is that no matter how good, bad or indifferent a system is access to it should equal; the SG is responsible for the appeal system, they think its right to have one, and having identified education as a key weapon in fighting inequality this looks to be counter to that alleged priority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaikuHibee Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Labour have nothing to do with this; other than releasing a press release that the Scotsman has published without bothering to fact check highlighting the position, which when brought to the attention of the FM she talked about exam results in general???? You cannot pay for Schools are meant to pay for appeals checks in the state sector to stop them appealing every case they get a result which they do not like . If you can then that is an even bigger issue for the SG Labour claim as it gives the richer parents in state schools an option not available to the poorer ones and within an allegedly free at point of use for all that would be a real issue. But it isn't because you are wrong on this point. Private schools putting in more than double the amount of appeals (proportionately and with a similar degree of failure success) and where these appeals come at a potential small significant cost doesn't look like doing anything for the equality gapto discourage all exams in state and private sector schools with slightly lower than average marks being sent for appeal. And it looks like Labour claiim rich kids have a further option not available to poorer ones within the new exam system which would amount to a very small number of actual exams if they are right but can't be bothered providing any actual evidence. In circa 25% of 1% of examscases the appeal was successful; and bearing in mind these will be exams where the schools genuinely think there has been an error with the marking as they will lose forty quid if they are wrong the format is based only on the marking of the exam itself I think that is quite high? but maybe that is what passes as effective marking? What about consistent access to all aspects of the exam system; that can be achieved and that is what the point is here. No system is perfect you are right and the focus has got to be on hard work and achievement; but that ethos is undermined by a system where money can buy who an extra. You can't buy a pass. You can appeal if you want. You'll likely lose it. The education and exam system is not just there for the high flyers and/or the rich Oh f**k off Tubbsy. Rich kids sit A levels here. This is pathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubbs Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 That's an F for interpretation, an F for presentation, and an A for gibberish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaikuHibee Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 The class enemy? The bourgeious SQA heathens. To the barricades! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubbs Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 So the happy clappers response so far (in no particular order) is: Its the Scotsman's fault (despite loads of other media outlets running it), Its Labour's fault via a press release ( despite a debate in Parliament),misinformation about the ability for state school pupil's parents to pay, its not the biggest issue in the world so its a total non-issue, appeals are rubbish anyway, there is no stats, ok there is stats but we think they are good, appeals only matter if you're a high flyer, lets just drop appeals but don't criticise the regime who kept and re-vamped them (also ignoring the potential impact on marking standards if markers know their work can't be appealed), you will never get a perfect marking system so lets not even bother trying, grades are everything but not so important as to ensure equal access to the grading system, make up false claims about buying grades, reject the idea that education and the exam system is not just for the right or high flyers. That said, they haven't said it helps inequality and have admitted that the whole point is to discourage appeals via a financial barrier - which in itself admits more of an impact on the poor than the rich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wirez Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 You obviously feel the present system is deeply unfair. Given that this is the politics forum and we are nearing a General Election, could you enlighten us as to which party has the best chance of sorting this mess out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubbs Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I started by making clear my position was that this looked potentially unfair and should be looked at more closely. This led to the usual knee jerk responses of ignoring, deflecting and then defending the SG no matter what. Since education is devolved, I am genuinely intrigued at what you think a GE has to do with this, more deflection perhaps? This really shouldn't be a party political issue, its basic stuff of what you can and can't achieve via financial incentives/disincentives. Its also about holding the government to account in terms of what they deliver and what they talk about e.g. when the FM says addressing the equality gap will influence everything her government does I don't think its unreasonable to apply her own standards to her government and see how that standard applies in real life. We have only skirted around the fact that she totally avoided the issue in parliament by answering different questions and indeed it was only post the parliamentary session that the SG even clarified that the appeals procedure had changed last year. Given that this is a politics forum and you have chosen to enter the discussion what do you think this appeal revision has achieved in terms of equality? Still the SG thinks the current system is 'right and proportionate' and the greatest critics seems to be a yes minded people on here who disagree so strongly they think the appeal system should be scrapped altogether or that it is meaningless (they can't seem to decide), whilst I was only suggesting they look at perhaps the unintended consequences of the cost introduction. PS Everyone has decided not to mention the drop in college science, technology, engineering and maths places at colleges covered in the same Scotsman article / parliamentary debate; maybe that is lies as well? Or maybe since these places don't cater for the next big things they are meaningless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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