Junior football, what is the future?

[Burnie_man]

I wouldn't, if teams feel they want to move on then good luck to them.

I'm not necessarily against the integration of the game, you have chosen however to provide solely examples (sketchy ones at that) aimed at the Junior leagues.  Dalkeith has never been a hot-bed of the game and you have still refused to acknowledge there have been problems at Arniston which have had an impact which have absolutely nothing to do with the league they play in.  You've mentioned teams who perhaps struggle to get people through the gates and you aren't willing to acknowledge there are a number of factors at work here rather you'd  twist that towards your viewpoint but that isn't evidence of anything.  I'd be interested to see your breakdown of crowds at Glenrothes over say a ten year period which might add some weight to your theory that the junior game is ruining them.

I've seen first hand the progress Musselburgh have made within the current structure, crowds are up, we're a better side, we have made progress.  You aren't offering anything new, it's simply a rehash of old plans which haven't proven alluring enough in the past to entice clubs like us into a merger.  It's not unusual in football for some clubs to rise while some perhaps have a period where they maybe struggle a little.  Tranent would be a good example here, they appear to be rebuilding just fine in the Junior game.

People aren't losing interest, we're still seeing decent turn-outs at our games after our relegation this year.  We're going to need more proof for your theory that people are with more weight than your anecdotal theorising and you need to be looking at other factors impacting on clubs such as Arniston before you claim that your examples are indicative of a decline in the Junior game.

So, Musselburgh are doing alright so everything in the Junior game is fine? Anecdotal theorising indeed.

You've not said why the Juniors remaining a separate entity is better long term, you've not said how we can dissuade clubs leaving or increase interest in the game.

I provided three examples of poor crowds this season two of which I experienced personally, the other from the mouth of a Glenrothes official. You allude to other factors limiting crowds but don't expand. I'll give you another example, Kirkcaldy at one game last season had 3 paying fans.

If you're wanting to persuade people that the Junior game is in rude health and it's better to stay as we are then you're going to have to come up with how and why because i don't see it.

[Che Dail]

12 minutes ago, RobM said:

The progress we've made in the last 15-20 years has been huge if you don't want to narrow it down to a shorter time-scale to suit your own argument.

Excellent crowd at the recent Tranent v Burgh game.

Fair enough - although you did refer to progress  'within the current structure' which is relatively recent (Super / Premier / South - North)

My point is that, over the piece,  I reckon Musselburgh would be better off if they switched to EoS and playing local football alongside Bonnyrigg / Penicuik / Newtongrange / Tranent / Haddington / Dunbar / Dalkeith / Arniston / Easthouses. 

The Junior cup run clearly wasn't a lasting financial success, otherwise they wouldn't find themselves in the East Premier now.  With a club license, I'd expect Musselburgh would be capable of reaching Scottish Cup R2 and R3 fairly regularly. 

They're stifled in the current set-up.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Che Dail

[RobM]

Just now, Burnie_man said:

 

So, Musselburgh are doing alright so everything in the Junior game is fine? Anecdotal theorising indeed.

You've not said why the Juniors remaining a separate entity is better long term, you've not said how we can dissuade clubs leaving or increase interest in the game.

I provided three examples of poor crowds this season two of which I experienced personally, the other from the mouth of a Glenrothes official. You allude to other factors limiting crowds but don't expand. I'll give you another example, Kirkcaldy at one game last season had 3 paying fans.

If you're wanting to persuade people that the Junior game is in rude health and it's better to stay as we are then you're going to have to come up with how and why because i don't see it.   

 

OK, now you're going to demonstrate to me that Kirkcaldy was a thriving hotbed of the game at one time.  Kirkcaldy are a great little club, run by committed people but they are at the lower level of the game, bumping them into a unified set-up would improve that for them in what way?  

The one example you did provide that would rightly provoke some concern was Arniston.  As a club they have been through hell and high-water in recent years, proposed ground move falling through, having to play games at other clubs grounds, a fall in league placings.  All of this has impacted on the club but it is now in recovery, the dip in support has more to do with these factors than the fact that they play in the Junior game.  Maybe you could provide a detailed analysis to show us how such events would be better dealt with within a unified set-up?

I simply use the example of my own club because it is the one I know best, we have progressed and the Junior game hasn't held us back in any way.  Again you reach for the condescension.

I've already said that if clubs wish to enter the pyramid I have no issue with that, I wouldn't want to stop them, I don't see any point in attempting to dissuade them, there hasn't been a rush to the gates though has there?  Your proposal remains a re-hashing of old ideas which offer little to clubs at our level, you've conveniently ignored the movement of two clubs from the EoS into the Junior game in recent years as well.  What is it about the Junior set-up that those clubs preferred to the senior game?



 

[RobM]

23 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Fair enough - although you did refer to progress  'within the current structure' which is relatively recent (Super / Premier / South - North)

My point is that, over the piece,  I reckon Musselburgh would be better off if they switched to EoS and playing local football alongside Bonnyrigg / Penicuik / Newtongrange / Tranent / Haddington / Dunbar / Dalkeith / Arniston / Easthouses. 

The Junior cup run clearly wasn't a lasting financial success, otherwise they wouldn't find themselves in the East Premier now.  With a club license, I'd expect Musselburgh would be capable of reaching Scottish Cup R2 and R3 fairly regularly. 

They're stifled in the current set-up.

That structure would be within the period in which we've made that progress in other words, it's suited us well.  Again we're only one club but it's the place I know best.

I doubt you'd find many in the Musselburgh support who feel 'stifled' by the Junior set-up, it has allowed a modest club like ours to progress.  We've played all of these clubs recently or will play them this season, we'll get decent crowds for those games as well.  Why would we want to swap a competitive structure for one which is heavily weighted towards the top end clubs as the SPFL is? 

I'll say this again, even in England the pyramid doesn't function fully, there's little movement from the Northern League to higher levels because clubs are happy there and have a reasonable chance of competing there.  That's what the Junior set-up currently offers us and that's why there has been very limited movement from it to the senior game.  As I've said in my previous post there have been more clubs moving in the other direction.

Edited November 2, 2017 by RobM

[AlanCamelonfan]

28 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

 

So, Musselburgh are doing alright so everything in the Junior game is fine? Anecdotal theorising indeed.

You've not said why the Juniors remaining a separate entity is better long term, you've not said how we can dissuade clubs leaving or increase interest in the game.

I provided three examples of poor crowds this season two of which I experienced personally, the other from the mouth of a Glenrothes official. You allude to other factors limiting crowds but don't expand. I'll give you another example, Kirkcaldy at one game last season had 3 paying fans.

If you're wanting to persuade people that the Junior game is in rude health and it's better to stay as we are then you're going to have to come up with how and why because i don't see it.

And the crowds are poorer than that in EOSFL And Lowland League. So the crowds aren't going to better in EOSFL or Lowland League. EOSFLs crowds probably only gone up because of kelty. That might not happen next season if they don't go up

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, RobM said:

OK, now you're going to demonstrate to me that Kirkcaldy was a thriving hotbed of the game at one time.  Kirkcaldy are a great little club, run by committed people but they are at the lower level of the game, bumping them into a unified set-up would improve that for them in what way?  

The one example you did provide that would rightly provoke some concern was Arniston.  As a club they have been through hell and high-water in recent years, proposed ground move falling through, having to play games at other clubs grounds, a fall in league placings.  All of this has impacted on the club but it is now in recovery, the dip in support has more to do with these factors than the fact that they play in the Junior game.  Maybe you could provide a detailed analysis to show us how such events would be better dealt with within a unified set-up?

I simply use the example of my own club because it is the one I know best, we have progressed and the Junior game hasn't held us back in any way.  Again you reach for the condescension.

I've already said that if clubs wish to enter the pyramid I have no issue with that, I wouldn't want to stop them, I don't see any point in attempting to dissuade them, there hasn't been a rush to the gates though has there?  Your proposal remains a re-hashing of old ideas which offer little to clubs at our level, you've conveniently ignored the movement of two clubs from the EoS into the Junior game in recent years as well.  What is it about the Junior set-up that those clubs preferred to the senior game?



 

If you don't think that a club attracting 3 paying fans isn't a concern, regardless of level, then I'm not sure what else there is that would raise alarm bells.  Arniston are a  big club in East Region terms, they should be attracting more than 60 through the gate, half of which were from the visitors. They've not played away from Newbyres for some time so I'm not sure how that is a factor, they've even renovated the enclosure in the meantime.

The only example you have provided as evidence that the Junior game is healthy is that you're club are doing fine and Tranent turned themselves around when a sugar daddy came and pumped money in to revive them. Not every club has that option, and if the game was in a healthy state we'd have a sponsor for the Scottish Junior Cup.

I haven't ignored Easthouse and Craigroyston, indeed I listed them as evidence that there is zero difference between how they clubs are run or operate.

So I'll ask again, why should non-league clubs be kept apart in different systems? and what benefits are there to the Junior clubs remaining separate from the rest of Scottish football?

 

[AlanCamelonfan]

2 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

If you don't think that a club attracting 3 paying fans isn't a concern, regardless of level, then I'm not sure what else there is that would raise alarm bells.  Arniston are a  big club in East Region terms, they should be attracting more than 60 through the gate, half of which were from the visitors. They've not played away from Newbyres for some time so I'm not sure how that is a factor, they've even renovated the enclosure in the meantime.

The only example you have provided as evidence that the Junior game is healthy is that you're club are doing fine and Tranent turned themselves around when a sugar daddy came and pumped money in to revive them. Not every club has that option, and if the game was in a healthy state we'd have a sponsor for the Scottish Junior Cup.

I haven't ignored Easthouse and Craigroyston, indeed I listed them as evidence that there is zero difference between how they clubs are run or operate.

So I'll ask again, why should non-league clubs be kept apart in different systems? and what benefits are there to the Junior clubs remaining separate from the rest of Scottish football?

 

Whats the benefits for them to join the rest. It only benefits them if they became licensed  and not everyone is going to get licensed

[Burnie_man]

Just now, AlanCamelonfan said:

Whats the benefits for them to join the rest. It only benefits them if they became licensed  and not everyone is going to get licensed

Most clubs would be able to become Licenced if they wanted to. Small clubs such as Coldstream, Burntisland, Newton Stewart and St.Cuthberts, none in the LL but all Licenced.

 As for benefits, go back a page or two and look at the financial benefits enjoyed by clubs in the Scottish Cup, and for just being part of the Pyramid. The clubs mentioned above will all receive payments from the SFA over and above Scottish Cup money.  Our pal Glenafton93 will be able to tell you the benefits of Scottish Cup participation, as will the Bonnyrigg Treasurer from last seasons run.

[RobM]

But how would Kirkcaldy playing in a unified set-up help them attract more?

Arniston suffered from the time they spent out of Gorebridge and haven't fully recovered from that, that has impacted more on them than the fact they continue to play in the Juniors.

The benefit as I've said in my previous post is that we are playing in a competitive set-up and one which clubs with modest means can push on.  That's the benefit for us, why remove ourselves from a set-up that works for us?  That would be the question that many in junior football would ask.

Why have Easthouses and Craigroyston removed themselves from a potential pyramid set-up though to go Junior?  You're not answering that.

More examples?  Glenafton, Pollock, Auchinleck, Bonnyrigg, Penicuik, Linlithgow......   

 

[AlanCamelonfan]

Just now, Burnie_man said:

Most clubs would be able to become Licenced if they wanted to. Small clubs such as Coldstream, Burntisland, Newton Stewart and St.Cuthberts, none in the LL but all Licenced.

 As for benefits, go back a page or two and look at the financial benefits enjoyed by clubs in the Scottish Cup, and for just being part of the Pyramid. The clubs mentioned above will all receive payments from the SFA over and above Scottish Cup money.  Our pal Glenafton93 will be able to tell you the benefits of Scottish Cup participation, as will the Bonnyrigg Treasurer from last seasons run.

Don't you have to be licensened or a competition winner such as EOSFL or junuior cup to get into it if your not licensed?

[Burnie_man]

Just now, AlanCamelonfan said:

Don't you have to be licensened or a competition winner such as EOSFL or junuior cup to get into it if your not licensed?

Yes.

[RobM]

1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

Most clubs would be able to become Licenced if they wanted to. Small clubs such as Coldstream, Burntisland, Newton Stewart and St.Cuthberts, none in the LL but all Licenced.

 As for benefits, go back a page or two and look at the financial benefits enjoyed by clubs in the Scottish Cup, and for just being part of the Pyramid. The clubs mentioned above will all receive payments from the SFA over and above Scottish Cup money.  Our pal Glenafton93 will be able to tell you the benefits of Scottish Cup participation, as will the Bonnyrigg Treasurer from last seasons run.

But that pot would be reduced the more clubs that entered the pyramid though wouldn't it?

Would it be enough to raise grounds to the required standards for clubs who would perhaps have to mortgage themselves to meet these?

[Burnie_man]

Just now, RobM said:

But that pot would be reduced the more clubs that entered the pyramid though wouldn't it?

Would it be enough to raise grounds to the required standards for clubs who would perhaps have to mortgage themselves to meet these?

I'll address those points when you answer the two questions I've posed.

[RobM]

5 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I'll address those points when you answer the two questions I've posed.

I've already answered one.  Many Junior clubs don't want to move from a competitive set-up to enter one that is top-heavy, why would we?  

What was the other one and then you can answer the points above?

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, RobM said:

I've already answered one.  Many Junior clubs don't want to move from a competitive set-up to enter one that is top-heavy, why would we?  

What was the other one and then you can answer the points above?

I'm not sure either of those are linked, the LL downwards is what would be the immediate focus, and Junior clubs joining would make it even more competitive and would bring more quality.

The questions were;

Why should non-league clubs be kept apart in different systems? and what benefits are there to the Junior clubs remaining separate from the rest of Scottish football?

[RobM]

Well the question you'll be answering soon is the one that needs answering.

In moving from the Junior set up to a unified one what expenses would there be for clubs in terms of licencing and ground improvements.   At what level would floodlighting become a necessity?  If a club has developed a decent playing squad would that have to be broken up to pay for this or would clubs need to borrow to invest and potentially risk the future of the club?  Clubs at the Junior level compete on grounds that range from fenced off pubic parks through to  more impressive examples at say Linlithgow and Pollock.    What money would the SFA be providing to develop infra-stucture and bring grounds to the level they need to be at?

In the Junior level any ground can host pretty much any tie in our game, I don't think many want to risk their futures by making their grounds ready for a move few want.  We also don't impinge on our players with a great deal of midweek games which may mean players missing games or having to take time off work.  Our game fits around its people rather than the other way around.

That should pretty much cover both questions.  

[calmac25]

But how would Kirkcaldy playing in a unified set-up help them attract more?

Arniston suffered from the time they spent out of Gorebridge and haven't fully recovered from that, that has impacted more on them than the fact they continue to play in the Juniors.

The benefit as I've said in my previous post is that we are playing in a competitive set-up and one which clubs with modest means can push on.  That's the benefit for us, why remove ourselves from a set-up that works for us?  That would be the question that many in junior football would ask.

Why have Easthouses and Craigroyston removed themselves from a potential pyramid set-up though to go Junior?  You're not answering that.

More examples?  Glenafton, Pollock, Auchinleck, Bonnyrigg, Penicuik, Linlithgow......   

 

Craigroyston have no chance of getting licenced as I believe their changing rooms are outwith the ground and despite past interest in SFA membership they are unlikely to get there.

Easthouses Lily said at the time that licencing was out of their reach but now are only an enclosure for 25 away from achieving most of the basics. They stated that the opportunity for bigger local games (being in East juniors heartland) was a motivator. So far they've had a game recently against Bonnyrigg Rose which would justify their move but otherwise are struggling and may have had more success in the East seniors. Things looked pretty ropey when they left but have stabilised since

[RobM]

See this is the problem, licencing and ground improvements creates a glass ceiling for clubs that doesn't exist in the Juniors.  Why would clubs push themselves into a set-up which demands substantial financial input when the current set-up doesn't?

Clubs aren't going to lay their future on the line to meet criteria they have no real desire to meet.

Edited November 2, 2017 by RobM

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, RobM said:

Well the question you'll be answering soon is the one that needs answering.

In moving from the Junior set up to a unified one what expenses would there be for clubs in terms of licencing and ground improvements.   At what level would floodlighting become a necessity?  If a club has developed a decent playing squad would that have to be broken up to pay for this or would clubs need to borrow to invest and potentially risk the future of the club?  Clubs at the Junior level compete on grounds that range from fenced off pubic parks through to  more impressive examples at say Linlithgow and Pollock.    What money would the SFA be providing to develop infra-stucture and bring grounds to the level they need to be at?

In the Junior level any ground can host pretty much any tie in our game, I don't think many want to risk their futures by making their grounds ready for a move few want.  We also don't impinge on our players with a great deal of midweek games which may mean players missing games or having to take time off work.  Our game fits around its people rather than the other way around.

That should pretty much cover both questions.  

Only the Lowland League requires a Licence, and as I have already pointed out, there are some pretty small clubs already Licenced outwith that, Coldstream, Burntisland, Newton Stewart, Civil Service Strollers, Threave Rovers and St.Cuthberts, even Golspie Sutherland up north. If they are able to  do it, any Junior club competitive enough to be promoted into the LL can do it (down the road from you, Preston Athletic are Licenced, so are Whitehill, I'm sure Musselburgh could be with little effort).  The Scottish Football Partnership help with grants as do other funding bodies and some Councils. Once you are Licenced and members of the SFA, you start to receive the financial benefits that over time outweigh any initial outlay. However, Licencing is not all about facilities, most Junior clubs tick a lot of the boxes already. It isn't a barrier.

The Junior game does not fit around people, we don't play midweek games under floodlights as many clubs don't have them, meaning 3 games a week from mid-April, sometimes 4 if you're really behind, to catch-up. That's not very player or fan or committee friendly, it's a disaster.

Was that your answer to both questions?

[Burnie_man]

13 minutes ago, calmac25 said:

Craigroyston have no chance of getting licenced as I believe their changing rooms are outwith the ground and despite past interest in SFA membership they are unlikely to get there.

Easthouses Lily said at the time that licencing was out of their reach but now are only an enclosure for 25 away from achieving most of the basics. They stated that the opportunity for bigger local games (being in East juniors heartland) was a motivator. So far they've had a game recently against Bonnyrigg Rose which would justify their move but otherwise are struggling and may have had more success in the East seniors. Things looked pretty ropey when they left but have stabilised since

The transformation at Easthouses is a credit to the club and the hard work they put into it. It's gone from a basic field to a ground which only needs minimal work to be Licenced if they needed/wanted to.  If they can do it, most Junior clubs can do it.