Junior football, what is the future?

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Jason King said:

I say old boy, you seem rather upset.

As has already been mentioned you clearly have not actually read what I said but carry on responding to what you think has been written. In the general hierarchy of Football of course Junior football is meaningless. Do you really think there are thousands of Aberdeen fans who care if Benburb win the title this season or hundreds of Morton fans who would bat an eyelid if Talbot shut down tomorrow? Its non-league football in Scotland, and not even the top echelons of non-league football in Scotland, of course its meaningless beyond those with an interest in it, in exactly the same way as the likes of Rochdale are meaningless to everyone outside of England etc. Its not meaningless to me as my team play in that league but I'm not stupid enough to think that outside of a dwindling number of supporters there is a passionate interest in the level of football that my team play in. There aren't people hunched over their phones around midnight on Saturday night in Malaysia desperately hitting refresh on the West Region website as they need to know how the Bens got on at Thorniewood.

If Celtic and Rangers closed down this afternoon there wouldn't be a massive number of Tottenham/PSG/Real Madrid fans caring a single iota as to them its a small club from a backwater league that they have no interest in.

And in the same way that when Stonehouse/Gretna/Clydebank/Airdrieonians folded a few years ago I wasn't crying into my Bovril as they weren't my club, if Benburb shut down at the end of the season I would obviously be clearly distressed (for all of a couple of minutes, because at the end of the day its just a sport and no one dies) by that but I wouldn't expect every other fan of Scottish football clubs to give it more than a passing glance or even know about it.

I've been to 32 games this season, that's games of football not Junior games, not senior games just games of Football. The grade is irrelevant to me, I watch my team and would support them wherever they play. That's a concept you seem to be having difficulty understanding but carry on insulting me as its the only recourse you have to your complete and utter lack of a cohesive case as to why Junior football is different.

And by the way, your acolytes and green/red dot obsession is painfully desperate posting.

Tell me when I mentioned green dots other than the post you are attempting to discredit?  You think my justification of the Junior identity doesn't hold water, and you are probably right as it is a very complex and subjective thing to explain. I think Talbot have an identity which is unambiguously Junior, have thrived in that culture and owe loyalty to it, as do others. I can't give you statistics or data to back it up it is just how I feel as do my club. However, I consider that I got you spot on with your comments, I wouldn't go into a depression if the Bens went out of business, but I would certainly give it a second thought and would consider it a sad day. 

[Glenconner]

4 hours ago, Jason King said:

I say old boy, you seem rather upset.

As has already been mentioned you clearly have not actually read what I said but carry on responding to what you think has been written. In the general hierarchy of Football of course Junior football is meaningless. Do you really think there are thousands of Aberdeen fans who care if Benburb win the title this season or hundreds of Morton fans who would bat an eyelid if Talbot shut down tomorrow? Its non-league football in Scotland, and not even the top echelons of non-league football in Scotland, of course its meaningless beyond those with an interest in it, in exactly the same way as the likes of Rochdale are meaningless to everyone outside of England etc. Its not meaningless to me as my team play in that league but I'm not stupid enough to think that outside of a dwindling number of supporters there is a passionate interest in the level of football that my team play in. There aren't people hunched over their phones around midnight on Saturday night in Malaysia desperately hitting refresh on the West Region website as they need to know how the Bens got on at Thorniewood.

If Celtic and Rangers closed down this afternoon there wouldn't be a massive number of Tottenham/PSG/Real Madrid fans caring a single iota as to them its a small club from a backwater league that they have no interest in.

And in the same way that when Stonehouse/Gretna/Clydebank/Airdrieonians folded a few years ago I wasn't crying into my Bovril as they weren't my club, if Benburb shut down at the end of the season I would obviously be clearly distressed (for all of a couple of minutes, because at the end of the day its just a sport and no one dies) by that but I wouldn't expect every other fan of Scottish football clubs to give it more than a passing glance or even know about it.

I've been to 32 games this season, that's games of football not Junior games, not senior games just games of Football. The grade is irrelevant to me, I watch my team and would support them wherever they play. That's a concept you seem to be having difficulty understanding but carry on insulting me as its the only recourse you have to your complete and utter lack of a cohesive case as to why Junior football is different.

And by the way, your acolytes and green/red dot obsession is painfully desperate posting.

I would hate to see Benburb go defunct with all that history gone.

[Blackie Gold]

Any news from the SFA about the WOSL? 

[Burnie_man]

16 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

 and owe loyalty to it, as do others.

"Grade" syndrome again.  Why do you owe "loyalty" to it and expect others to do so?  You do what is best for your club, and that alone.

[Auld Heid]

43 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

"Grade" syndrome again.  Why do you owe "loyalty" to it and expect others to do so?  You do what is best for your club, and that alone.

Or you could always go with - "if at first you don't succeed then let's move"  certainly beats natural progression.

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, Auld Heid said:

Or you could always go with - "if at first you don't succeed then let's move"  certainly beats natural progression.

If only it was that simple.

[HTG]

9 minutes ago, Auld Heid said:

Or you could always go with - "if at first you don't succeed then let's move"  certainly beats natural progression.

There is something here about needing to get your thinking in order here. From what I can see, you're unhappy that the Rose and Bo'ness didn't apply to join the EoS League because if the pyramid is the future then we should get there at the highest level possible. 

On the other hand, you have an issue with other clubs taking the decision you think we should have taken but it looks like you're blaming them for there not being natural progression - and that maybe they should wait until there is. 

I happen to agree with you that in aligning junior football to the pyramid on the back of the recent survey, a bit of reflection on how that can best be achieved for North, South, East and West would make much more sense than having a raft of clubs doing their own thing. 

But ... the EoS League under the auspices of the SFA is open to applications. The SJFA under the auspices of the SFA is open to starting negotiations with the SFA, LL, HFL, EoS and SoS.

The problem is that the first of these is 2018/19 and the second is 2019/20.

The answer to the conundrum sits very firmly with the organisation overseeing both or indeed all parties. If they lifted their heads for even a minute, the SFA could sort this. 

[Deeside Dynamo]

8 minutes ago, HTG said:

There is something here about needing to get your thinking in order here. From what I can see, you're unhappy that the Rose and Bo'ness didn't apply to join the EoS League because if the pyramid is the future then we should get there at the highest level possible. 

On the other hand, you have an issue with other clubs taking the decision you think we should have taken but it looks like you're blaming them for there not being natural progression - and that maybe they should wait until there is. 

I happen to agree with you that in aligning junior football to the pyramid on the back of the recent survey, a bit of reflection on how that can best be achieved for North, South, East and West would make much more sense than having a raft of clubs doing their own thing. 

But ... the EoS League under the auspices of the SFA is open to applications. The SJFA under the auspices of the SFA is open to starting negotiations with the SFA, LL, HFL, EoS and SoS.

The problem is that the first of these is 2018/19 and the second is 2019/20.

The answer to the conundrum sits very firmly with the organisation overseeing both or indeed all parties. If they lifted their heads for even a minute, the SFA could sort this. 

The SFA might not be able to sort it, per se, but they have the capabilities to, perhaps, point folk in the right direction. However, at this juncture they are devoid of a Chief Executive who would be one of the main parties involved in such a decision and, whilst it would be great to have all the issues solved yesterday, that isn't going to happen. Fair enough they did start the Lowland League in a matter of weeks, I think it was done a bit half arsed and it is only now beginning to find it's feet after a number of years. Fair enough get it sorted, but get it sorted correctly.

 

[Garret Deasy]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/01/junior-football-scotland-ruin-senior-leagues

[HTG]

1 hour ago, Deeside Dynamo said:

The SFA might not be able to sort it, per se, but they have the capabilities to, perhaps, point folk in the right direction. However, at this juncture they are devoid of a Chief Executive who would be one of the main parties involved in such a decision and, whilst it would be great to have all the issues solved yesterday, that isn't going to happen. Fair enough they did start the Lowland League in a matter of weeks, I think it was done a bit half arsed and it is only now beginning to find it's feet after a number of years. Fair enough get it sorted, but get it sorted correctly.

 

I agree with you. In the scheme of Scottish football this isn't a big deal so I don't see that it needs a chief exec.  Whoever is acting in their place could set out a series of actions that need to happen and do it with minimal fuss. If this sort of thing is beyond an organisation like the SFA I'd be astonished. It's bread and butter mgt.

[Baxter's Nutmeg]

Nero fiddled while Rome burned.

If there was ever a more apt saying to describe TJ and his cohorts.

[cmontheloknow]

4 hours ago, santheman said:

Don't disagree with any of that although I don't think there will be a MASS exodus as such but probably enough to set up  a league of some description if the SFA ever get their finger out although if it is set below the EOSL and SOSL which it probably will be then a lot of these clubs could face years trying to get through the WOSL into the SOSL and any possible play off scenario. Whether that would be a deal breaker for some clubs I don't know.

 

Really can't see an new WoSL being below the South, Sandy. If the South is even L6 in 5 years time I'd be surprised.

[Auld Heid]

There is something here about needing to get your thinking in order here. From what I can see, you're unhappy that the Rose and Bo'ness didn't apply to join the EoS League because if the pyramid is the future then we should get there at the highest level possible. 
On the other hand, you have an issue with other clubs taking the decision you think we should have taken but it looks like you're blaming them for there not being natural progression - and that maybe they should wait until there is. 
I happen to agree with you that in aligning junior football to the pyramid on the back of the recent survey, a bit of reflection on how that can best be achieved for North, South, East and West would make much more sense than having a raft of clubs doing their own thing. 
But ... the EoS League under the auspices of the SFA is open to applications. The SJFA under the auspices of the SFA is open to starting negotiations with the SFA, LL, HFL, EoS and SoS.
The problem is that the first of these is 2018/19 and the second is 2019/20.
The answer to the conundrum sits very firmly with the organisation overseeing both or indeed all parties. If they lifted their heads for even a minute, the SFA could sort this. 

Wrong - I'm unhappy at the ineptitude shown by
The SFA to lead proper change from the top.

Instead we have a free for all.

[1320Lichtie]

Just read it for the first time, how the f**k did he manage to go from some boy doing the Vs twenty years ago to Scotland being beaten by Costa Rica in a friendly. [emoji23]

What a load of pish

[Garret Deasy]

1 hour ago, Deeside Dynamo said:

The SFA might not be able to sort it, per se, but they have the capabilities to, perhaps, point folk in the right direction. However, at this juncture they are devoid of a Chief Executive who would be one of the main parties involved in such a decision and, whilst it would be great to have all the issues solved yesterday, that isn't going to happen. Fair enough they did start the Lowland League in a matter of weeks, I think it was done a bit half arsed and it is only now beginning to find it's feet after a number of years. Fair enough get it sorted, but get it sorted correctly.

 

While I do like to be glass 'half full' person, I do think expecting to SFA to be able to sort anything out is verging on the incredulous. 

This is an organisation without a chief executive, and soon to be without an interim chief executive, there is nae Michael O'Neill who was interviewed in slow motion, instead we have Big Eck who got the old heave ho from an Egyptian club two years ago. Performance Directors have been and mostly gone, from Wotte, Brian McClair, then Austin McPhee who said no thanks, and now the guy who was sacked for his racist comments isthe guy in post. Fortunately his daddy is on the board of the National Stadium (a blazer?). The dodgy threesome of Queens Park, the National Stadium and the SFA is all smoke and mirrors. 

Easy to see why the SFA is considered the second most useless governing body in Scotland. 

[Garret Deasy]

19 minutes ago, gogsy said:

This link has been posted twice already, and has been ridiculed by  sensible posters on here, try getting some fresh material.

Oh gosh, I didn't read every post before posting this. Sorry about that. 

I presume you are one of the 'sensible' posters. And fae Kelty as well. You got it all. 

For the non sensible readers on here, https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/01/junior-football-scotland-ruin-senior-leagues

[Glenconner]

29 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

Just read it for the first time, how the f**k did he manage to go from some boy doing the Vs twenty years ago to Scotland being beaten by Costa Rica in a friendly.

What a load of pish

From Arbroath as well.

[santheman]

31 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

Really can't see an new WoSL being below the South, Sandy. If the South is even L6 in 5 years time I'd be surprised.

Really hope you're right Jamie but I have a feeling that the SFA will take the side of an already existing association over a brand new one although anyone with any brains should see that the top West juniors should sit above the SOSL.

Time will tell

[Che Dail]

27 minutes ago, Garret Deasy said:

Oh gosh, I didn't read every post before posting this. Sorry about that. 

I presume you are one of the 'sensible' posters. And fae Kelty as well. You got it all. 

For the non sensible readers on here, https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/01/junior-football-scotland-ruin-senior-leagues

There are 169 comments on the Kevin McKenna article. Many of them are far more 'sensible' than the article itself.

The one second from the end by Damon Main is very good.

[Burnie_man]

13 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

There are 169 comments on the Kevin McKenna article. Many of them are far more 'sensible' than the article itself.

The one second from the end by Damon Main is very good.

An excellent comment;

Damon Main

2d ago

 

0 1

My understanding is that the attempts to assimilate Juniors into the pyramid has been pretty done poorly and unprofessionally.

An email was issued out to all clubs with Q's - would you be interested? It is so half hearted its incredible. Those that run Junior football dont want to change - but ambitious clubs want to progress because Scottish football and Scottish clubs want to progress.

- They want to improve skills
- They want to involve ladies football and girls in the community
- They want to put down 3G pitches and get local girls and boys playing in an inclusive way.

For the above three points see Kelty Hearts, see Blackburn United. Progressive football clubs who have left or are LEAVING the Juniors.

This Questionnaire has came in response to threats of certain clubs to 'withdraw' from the Junior set up and indeed clubs who have left or are leaving.

Kelty Hearts - Left Juniors for EoSFL
Dalkieth - Joining EoSFL
Blackburn United - Leaving for EoSFL

Other clubs as far as I am aware will be following suit.

As noted, one of the reasons these clubs are withdrawing from Juniors is that unfortunatly Junior football is full of rigid dinosaur clubs who play football in crumbling grounds, and the system is packed for of too many teams.

The clubs are traditional but rigid, closed shop and run by committees that are outdated. Granted they have local rivals, traditional old season by season local rivals but theat only takes clubs so far.

What about those in the community looking in wanting to play but cant because the club is all about just 11 guys kicking a ball about come Saturday?

Why should Kelty Hearts, Blackburn United (who have excellent grounds, excellent facilities, community clubs, female teams, youth teams, U20 teams) be restricted by the dinosaurs who run Junior football and its rigid traditional set up?

As far as I can see there is no U20 league for Junior clubs (if there is I have never seen a game in this league)? No female teams? No girls teams? In contrast would the SPFL league set up (the pyrimad system) would that allow wider community involvement for Junior Clubs?

Would it allow lads to play in an U20 league like the EoSFL - yes it would.

Junior clubs like Auchinleck Talbot have rich traditions. Its a good ground that puts the grounds of Cowdenbeath, Albion Rovers to shame. Same at Blackburn United and Linlithgow Rose.

But wallowing in centiry old nostaligia is wrong attitude.

I fear for Junior clubs if they all assimilate and I am concerned that those involved are not getting around a table as they should be. Instead its all half hearted questionnaires, pointless press releases and articles like this.

Junior clubs (the big clubs), the SPFL, SFA, EoSFL, South of Scotland League, Highland League ALL need to get around a table ASAP. Forget the kak handed emails asking opinion, forget the negative tradition. Get the big clubs i.e. those that want to progress involved in the league set up. We know who these clubs are:

Linlithgow Rose
Bonnyrigg Rose
Banks o Dee
Auchinleck Talbot
Cumnock Juniors
Glenafton
Blackburn United

These clubs could and should be part of the EoSFL, or the South Scotland league or the Highland League.

What can Banks o Dee achieve in Juniors? Games against Dyce Juniors??? What could they acheive in the Highland League? Quite a lot potentially.

The traditions of the Juniors has to go on. The Junior set up can continue as there are clubs in it that are more or less amatuers with public park set ups. They are no more league pyramid clubs than a bloke down the park kicking a ball about with his mates.

But there are clubs in the Juniors now who are better clubs, have better set ups, have more fans, richer histories and far more potential than many of the clubs in the SPFL.

Kelty Hearts for example are a much better club than Cowdenbeath. That is obvious.

So, all these clubs. Forget the tradition, forget the nostaligia, embrace new opportunities for the first time in over 100+ years.

Sort ot out before its another 50+ years before Scotland qualifies for another tournament. At least do it for the next player (boy or girl) who has some sort of dream.