Junior football, what is the future?

[Burnie_man]

Any Junior grounds with soul will have this removed upon entry to the Pyramid. This is a Licencing requirement. Sorry.

[The Moonster]

2 minutes ago, Ivo den Bieman said:

Lighten up ffs

It comes down to personal perception / preference. I hate modern grounds in the lower leagues such as yours, East Fifes &co. The ground is void of atmosphere, over priced, advertising-opportunity-heavy and not ideal to watch football in. For the same reason the one or two Premier League games I have attended in recent seasons have been profoundly depressing; all that garish marketing razzmatazz then the whistle goes and you find it's still the same old attritional football of fear.

As you seem to be a wee bit sensitive about the Rock (or whatever its sponsorship name is these days) I would focus on East Fife. Their ground is a horrible, soulless place to watch football, all breeze blocks and plastic. East Fife's old Bayview did have "soul" (we  might agree that's not the best word; history / tradition might be better) and I find it hard to believe it uniquely incapable of providing for the Fifers 500 or so core support if it still existed today.

There was a lot of delusion about building new grounds in the 90s. New Bayview was conceived of as a "mini Ibrox" ffs but after one Brechin-like season in the Championship in 96/7 East Fife have had no reason to put up the other three stands. The result is a quarter built ground that has a much character as the local retail park, and somehow feels as impermanent.

"Soul", history, tradition, whatever, consists of many different things; the tradition of playing in one park for decades; the memories of great games from the past at the park; the seat your father or grandfather used to occupy when watching; the old shirts, photographs, memories in the corridors of the stand and the club bar; the layered patina of history; the emotional investment that an individual makes not only in the progress of the team but also in the location of their club, over many many years.

I much prefer old fashioned grounds; give me Cliftonhill, Glebe Park, Stair Park and old Bayview over garish coloured one sided, sponsor-named, heavily branded plastic any day of the week. For others the "customer experience" is king and good luck to them. I'm not a "customer" though. If I invested as much emotionally in consumer-provider relations as I do in football I'd have been 6 feet under long ago

anyway this is w-a-a-a-a-a-y off topic so enough from me.

Can you explain what's "not ideal" about having a perfect side view of the pitch like at the Rock?  

Soul is absolutely the wrong word and that was exactly my point. Of course people will prefer different things about different grounds. As for the history/tradition stuff - birthday caird pish.

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, DavidMcG said:

Isa, what exactly is culturally different from junior leagues and lowland leagues? And what is 'junior identity' you keep banging on about it but yet to explain what it is exactly?

OK, I'll have a go, but I am now getting to the stage of losing the will again and I feel am trying to convince the inconvincible and, to a degree, the hostile on this thread.

My stance now on this is mainly a defence of Talbot's position, shared by a lot of clubs, which is concern of losing their identity. If I may will use my club as the main example, but justify by saying other clubs, and fans of, would readily endorse the sentiment.

In a way, has been echoed elsewhere, Talbot are in a unique position and it could be strongly argue they are the quintessential Junior club from a the most partisan Junior area. They owe much of that to the equally unique world that is Junior football,  a club from a village has realised and maintained success that most other clubs can only dream of,  and it is heartily felt that the environs of the grade and an area that has embraced that culture has as much to do with the success as hardworking committees or large crowds, although part of that is why the crowds are as good.

Why do I believe it is unique? Because over 40 years of watching it I have witnessed tremendous occasions with massive crowds that at times most clubs in Scotland in any grade would envy. I'm still gobsmacked that despite Talbot 13 Scottish Junior finals in 30 years, they still pack out to the gunnels the East Stand at Rugby Park, no complacency from familiarity. Even last year when they weren’t playing well and not favourites. I believe that Talbot's continuing success is because of the Junior Football heritage in East Ayrshire. I have been to a few SOS and EOSL games, but see no evidence that it would generate even a glimpse of the passion or commitment I have witnessed over the years in Ayrshire. Big Scottish ties against Bonnyrigg, Linlithgow and Bo'ness have been equally thrilling as the all Ayrshire affairs, as with Pollok and Rob Roy.

To compare this with the sanitised sterile atmosphere of some senior games, especially the less well supported that can be  over priced, over stewarded, void of atmosphere. Yes I know that there are great parts of the senior game and there are Junior games which are nothing like those described, but at the top end Juniors when it's good it is special. For me whatever is left of that should be harnessed and part of the new set up. Opening up the Junior Cup would be beneficial in this and for other non-league clubs I’m sure.

It probably won’t for some, but I hope that it does explain why Talbot and other Junior clubs have trepidation. As with most things cultural a lot of it can’t be measured in units and is difficult to assess exactly. However, I stand by it and suggest that having the biggest Junior clubs in a pyramid with a forum where they can retain and foster that identity would be good for all.  

[Ivo den Bieman]

1. it's the whole ground experience, not just the watching of the game that makes up a match day. I can have a perfect side view of the game at Links Park but the ground isn't beamed down from outer space / bought from B&Q and put up in a couple of weekends.

2. you're not interested in history then. cool. bye 

[The Moonster]

2 minutes ago, Ivo den Bieman said:

1. it's the whole ground experience, not just the watching of the game that makes up a match day. I can have a perfect side view of the game at Links Park but the ground isn't beamed down from outer space / bought from B&Q and put up in a couple of weekends.

2. you're not interested in history then. cool. bye 

1. What a load of pish.

2. I'm interested in history of football clubs and their achievements. Where yer granny used to sit means absolutely f**k all to anyone though and has absolutely no affect on the match day experience.  Are you suggesting Dumbarton should've stayed at the health hazard that was Boghead so that we kept our "soul"? If so, cool, bye.

[Ivo den Bieman]

who appointed you spokesperson of "anyone"?

I didn't mention Boghead which was a complete dump. Dumbarton have never had much luck with their grounds.

in any case, it's not my fault if you have a boring afternoon at work and are looking for an argument. go and have it with someone else.

[Glenconner]

19 minutes ago, Ivo den Bieman said:

Lighten up ffs

It comes down to personal perception / preference. I hate modern grounds in the lower leagues such as yours, East Fifes &co. The ground is void of atmosphere, over priced, advertising-opportunity-heavy and not ideal to watch football in. For the same reason the one or two Premier League games I have attended in recent seasons have been profoundly depressing; all that garish marketing razzmatazz then the whistle goes and you find it's still the same old attritional football of fear.

As you seem to be a wee bit sensitive about the Rock (or whatever its sponsorship name is these days) I would focus on East Fife. Their ground is a horrible, soulless place to watch football, all breeze blocks and plastic. East Fife's old Bayview did have "soul" (we  might agree that's not the best word; history / tradition might be better) and I find it hard to believe it uniquely incapable of providing for the Fifers 500 or so core support if it still existed today.

There was a lot of delusion about building new grounds in the 90s. New Bayview was conceived of as a "mini Ibrox" ffs but after one Brechin-like season in the Championship in 96/7 East Fife have had no reason to put up the other three stands. The result is a quarter built ground that has a much character as the local retail park, and somehow feels as impermanent.

"Soul", history, tradition, whatever, consists of many different things; the tradition of playing in one park for decades; the memories of great games from the past at the park; the seat your father or grandfather used to occupy when watching; the old shirts, photographs, memories in the corridors of the stand and the club bar; the layered patina of history; the emotional investment that an individual makes not only in the progress of the team but also in the location of their club, over many many years.

I much prefer old fashioned grounds; give me Cliftonhill, Glebe Park, Stair Park and old Bayview over garish coloured one sided, sponsor-named, heavily branded plastic any day of the week. For others the "customer experience" is king and good luck to them. I'm not a "customer" though. If I invested as much emotionally in consumer-provider relations as I do in football I'd have been 6 feet under long ago

anyway this is w-a-a-a-a-a-y off topic so enough from me.

Great post was lucky to have been in all the old grounds bar about four* of them, Alloa, Queen of the South, Albion Rovers and Meadowbank.

Wouldn't claim Meadowbank as a football ground anymore than where Carluke Rovers play in the present day.

[Jason King]

7 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

<snip>

 

You have just described football.

There was nothing in there to say why the junior "grade" is so special, it reads more as a paean to why Talbot are so much better than other clubs, that they may be but at the going down of the sun they are still just a small village club in what is essentially a meaningless league. No one outside of the Juniors cares for them (or anyone else down here) and wouldn't bat an eyelid if Talbot shut up shop tomorrow.

I've witnessed tremendous occasions in Welfare games, and that didnt make it any different from the tremendous occasions I've witnessed at international, European, EPL, EFL, SPL, SPFL, SFL, Junior, U-16s etc level.  If Talbot had joined the SFL in 1974 instead of Meadowbank you'd have had exactly the same ups and downs watching Talbot as you've had in the Juniors just with less gloryhunting.

Anyone who thinks that football isn't the same for fans of different clubs at different levels is clearly not thinking rationally about things.

[pie n beans]

If all the East teams get accepted into the EOS then a total revamp will be required and probably need to go to 2 divisions.

[The Moonster]

1 minute ago, Ivo den Bieman said:

who appointed you spokesperson of "anyone"?

I didn't mention Boghead which was a complete dump. Dumbarton have never had much luck with their grounds.

in any case, it's not my fault if you have a boring afternoon at work and are looking for an argument. go and have it with someone else.

Nobody made me spokesperson of anything or anyone, I'm well within my rights to call your opinion a load of pish if I deem it so.

But I thought the history and the tradition and photographs of the old corridors and the seat my granda used to sit in and the emotional investment that I've given to my team and location gave the stadium "soul"?  Boghead had all of that stuff.

You were the one who waltzed in with a smart arse comment, if you didn't want a debate you could easily have stopped replying. 

[Glenconner]

8 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

Nobody made me spokesperson of anything or anyone, I'm well within my rights to call your opinion a load of pish if I deem it so.

But I thought the history and the tradition and photographs of the old corridors and the seat my granda used to sit in and the emotional investment that I've given to my team and location gave the stadium "soul"?  Boghead had all of that stuff.

You were the one who waltzed in with a smart arse comment, if you didn't want a debate you could easily have stopped replying. 

Out of interest, is there any info on Dumbarton adding to the ground in the future?

[The Moonster]

1 minute ago, Glenconner said:

Out of interest, is there any info on Dumbarton adding to the ground in the future?

We've just had a stadium move rejected by the council. Don't think there is any possibility for building more stands at our current ground but I can't be sure of that. We're more likely to build houses round it now I think (I say "we", our property developing owners is what I mean).

[Ross.]

2 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

We've just had a stadium move rejected by the council. Don't think there is any possibility for building more stands at our current ground but I can't be sure of that. We're more likely to build houses round it now I think (I say "we", our property developing owners is what I mean).

As much as the 3 quarters empty bit is a tad shite for a football ground, the actual location is tremendous. Even a small 3 or 4 step terrace along the other sides just to close it off a bit would improve things.

Having read a little about the rejection, was it not more the houses that were knocked back as opposed to the stadium? Just that the new stadium was entirely dependent on the new houses being built? Also seen the site at Bowling mentioned as a potential spot. f**k that, even if they ever get round to cleaning it up.

[Glenconner]

3 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

We've just had a stadium move rejected by the council. Don't think there is any possibility for building more stands at our current ground but I can't be sure of that. We're more likely to build houses round it now I think (I say "we", our property developing owners is what I mean).

After all that, Dumbarton want out the place. hee hee.

[The Moonster]

3 minutes ago, Glenconner said:

After all that, Dumbarton want out the place. hee hee.

Our property developing owners want to realise the profit in the land our current ground sits on. This is very different to the club or fans wanting "out of the place" which has perfectly suited our needs for nearly two decades. Try again.

[Burnie_man]

Have I stumbled into the Championship forum??

BTW, has Dumbarton ever had a Junior team?

[Glenconner]

9 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

Our property developing owners want to realise the profit in the land our current ground sits on. This is very different to the club or fans wanting "out of the place" which has perfectly suited our needs for nearly two decades. Try again.

Shafted by the owners?

[Bathgate_Exile]

47 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

OK, I'll have a go, but I am now getting to the stage of losing the will again and I feel am trying to convince the inconvincible and, to a degree, the hostile on this thread.

 

My stance now on this is mainly a defence of Talbot's position, shared by a lot of clubs, which is concern of losing their identity. If I may will use my club as the main example, but justify by saying other clubs, and fans of, would readily endorse the sentiment.

 

In a way, has been echoed elsewhere, Talbot are in a unique position and it could be strongly argue they are the quintessential Junior club from a the most partisan Junior area. They owe much of that to the equally unique world that is Junior football,  a club from a village has realised and maintained success that most other clubs can only dream of,  and it is heartily felt that the environs of the grade and an area that has embraced that culture has as much to do with the success as hardworking committees or large crowds, although part of that is why the crowds are as good.

 

Why do I believe it is unique? Because over 40 years of watching it I have witnessed tremendous occasions with massive crowds that at times most clubs in Scotland in any grade would envy. I'm still gobsmacked that despite Talbot 13 Scottish Junior finals in 30 years, they still pack out to the gunnels the East Stand at Rugby Park, no complacency from familiarity. Even last year when they weren’t playing well and not favourites. I believe that Talbot's continuing success is because of the Junior Football heritage in East Ayrshire. I have been to a few SOS and EOSL games, but see no evidence that it would generate even a glimpse of the passion or commitment I have witnessed over the years in Ayrshire. Big Scottish ties against Bonnyrigg, Linlithgow and Bo'ness have been equally thrilling as the all Ayrshire affairs, as with Pollok and Rob Roy.

 

To compare this with the sanitised sterile atmosphere of some senior games, especially the less well supported that can be  over priced, over stewarded, void of atmosphere. Yes I know that there are great parts of the senior game and there are Junior games which are nothing like those described, but at the top end Juniors when it's good it is special. For me whatever is left of that should be harnessed and part of the new set up. Opening up the Junior Cup would be beneficial in this and for other non-league clubs I’m sure.

 

It probably won’t for some, but I hope that it does explain why Talbot and other Junior clubs have trepidation. As with most things cultural a lot of it can’t be measured in units and is difficult to assess exactly. However, I stand by it and suggest that having the biggest Junior clubs in a pyramid with a forum where they can retain and foster that identity would be good for all.  

 

There's no denying what Talbot have achieved is outstanding and a benchmark most club's at our grade to aim for. 

The above sounds like you enjoy being a big fish in a small pond (nothing wrong with that, and is probably the same reason Linlithgow didn't apply), but the main fear is you won't win everything in sight year on year should you be swallowed up by the pyramid. I totally understand your fear as this would obviously have an affect on other areas, such as attendance which then has knock on effects such as less money coming through the gates etc. A possible slow spiral into mediocrity. I think this is what you mean by "losing there identity".

[Ross.]

3 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Have I stumbled into the Championship forum??

BTW, has Dumbarton ever had a Junior team?

Vale of Leven? Do they come under Bonhill or Alexandria?

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Vale of Leven? Do they come under Bonhill or Alexandria?

Alexandria. I think there were a couple junior teams, don’t know if Renton counted as junior or if Denny’s had a junior team too.