Queen's Park/Clydesdale history question

[bluearmyfaction]

Couldn't see a subforum for history, so thought I'd give this a go.

Was looking through the History of Queen's Park 1867-1917 and there are quite a few slightly snarky references to a number of players decamping from QP to the new Clydesdale club; the goalkeeper Gardner and the Wotherspoon brothers for instance. 

Clydesdale seem to have faded away by 1880, possibly because they were too late to get the south Glasgow support, having sold out their ground to Rangers and moved closer to Queen's Park, and maybe unable to recruit replacements.

But was there some sort of falling out that saw players quit QP for Clydesdale?  I got the impression there was something of an undercurrent there.

[Ranaldo Bairn]

The obvious reason would be moving for money, but I can't remember the year that professionalism was allowed in Scotland.

Maybe they just looked down on an upstart club on "their" patch.

[Bring Your Own Socks]

1 hour ago, bluearmyfaction said:

Couldn't see a subforum for history, so thought I'd give this a go.

Was looking through the History of Queen's Park 1867-1917 and there are quite a few slightly snarky references to a number of players decamping from QP to the new Clydesdale club; the goalkeeper Gardner and the Wotherspoon brothers for instance. 

Clydesdale seem to have faded away by 1880, possibly because they were too late to get the south Glasgow support, having sold out their ground to Rangers and moved closer to Queen's Park, and maybe unable to recruit replacements.

But was there some sort of falling out that saw players quit QP for Clydesdale?  I got the impression there was something of an undercurrent there.

Not sure of any specifics but the turn if the century in that time was when money and professionalism started to threaten QPs prominence. The colour of money section in the club’s history page will give you a flavour. 
https://queensparkfc.co.uk/history/

You might get a better answer by phoning the club and asking for the historian.

[bluearmyfaction]

This is way before professionalism was a thing, it might simply be that some players were not getting their place in the team (after all there were very few matches then) or not getting their mates in.  This is back in 1872-3, professionalism in England was not permitted till 1885 and in Scotland till (I think) 1893.  In practice, under-the-counter payments seem to start in England circa 1877, the Lancashire mill owners basically enticing players down to bring in crowds to their fields.  In 1879 V***a entice Archie Hunter down with a £200 downpayment for a drapery shop (supplier: club secretary William Macgregor), which was higher than the record transfer fee for the next 15 years.

 

Incidentally, I think the website is pushing it to say Queen's introduced half-time and free-kicks into the game, half-time came into Association rules in 1870 and the free-kick in 1872 (bizarrely it seems before then the only remedy for a foul was not to allow any goal that resulted), but both were pinched from the Sheffield rules; the half-time change-over was in there from 1862 and the free-kick for a foul from March 1867.

 

No idea re the crossbar though.  I had thought that was down to Nottm Forest.

 

Funny, I never thought about contacting the club.   

[I Zingari]

Early in 1874, there was a major disagreement within Queen's Park over the club captaincy and Robert Gardner, the Scotland captain, stormed out and joined the other major club at the time - Clydesdale.  Several other players went with him, including the Wotherspoon brothers. 

[qpsnapper]

According to https://www.scotsfootballworldwide.scot/gardner, "  

Several others seem also to have left it, including another of Scotland's first team, David Wotherspoon, and Gardner himself. The explanation given by Queen's Park was that the parting was due to,

 

"some dissatisfaction in connection with his representation of the club on the committee of the Scottish Football Association"

 

It must have happened after March 1873 because he was still captaining Scotland then and selecting the team, including Wotherspoon on the right-wing, as a Queen's Park player on 8th March and the SFA was not formed until a week later. And perhaps it was he, who disagreed with Queen's Park's attitude to the new organisation and not the other way round. Then, of course, there is a much simpler explanation. Queen's Park seems to have had a slightly strange attitude to men marrying. Its first President, Mungo Ritichie, had stepped down for precisely that reason and on 25th June Robert Gardner, grain salesman, married Mary Arrol, the niece of the future Sir Robert Arrol and a milliner, which suggests they may have met again through his sister. And David Wotherspoon was best-man.

 

Both Gardner and Wotherspoon from Queen's Park joined Clydesdale FC. Wotherspoon came close but never played for Scotland again. Gardner did but the next time not as captain. The seven members of the team for the 1874 encounter with England refused to have him. It had to be one of them."

 

Also worth noting that Queen's used Clydesdale's ground for a season a few years on in 1884 when we had to leave first Hampden before second Hampden was ready.

 

 

[bluearmyfaction]

12 hours ago, I Zingari said:

Early in 1874, there was a major disagreement within Queen's Park over the club captaincy and Robert Gardner, the Scotland captain, stormed out and joined the other major club at the time - Clydesdale.  Several other players went with him, including the Wotherspoon brothers. 

Looking at English clubs in the period, the captain was usually the goalkeeper.  The main exceptions being the Wanderers (which were Charles Alcock's creation) and the Royal Engineers (which may be down Captain Marindin pulling rank over the lieutenants, although their normal goalie was of the same rank).  Perhaps Gardner suggested QP follow suit...

[Mick1867]

Here's me thinking our major beef back in the day was with Vale of Leven