Steve Clarke - in/out/general discussion

[ogoftheskye]

41 minutes ago, Mr Heliums said:

I understand those who want to get rid of Clarke; equally I get why some think he has credit in the bank and could even learn from this.

But I'll never understand those who think we have no right to expect more from that team.

Even most of the English pundits I've endured seem very surprised at our failure to show up, that we have better quality than we've shown etc (maybe there's an element of wanting to avoid abuse on social media, but still). The likes of Binos typify the Souness ignorant cringe-type response. I cringe when I remember he was once seriously touted as a Scotland manager.

[Jives Miguel]

1 minute ago, TheGoon said:

Look at the two lineups for the Irish sides in the Last 16 of the Euros. They’ve got experienced heads we could badly do with at the back, but they’re arguably weaker squads than we have now. ‘Lee Hodson’ and Allan Mannus just some of the bench options available too.

The 2016 versions of Laffery, Dallas, Davis, Evans, Cathcart, McAuley, Long, Brady, Mccarthy and Coleman would make our team from last night easily. Probably both goalies as well. 

 

[Binos]

18 minutes ago, Bing.McCrosby said:

Who are you referring to? Mcgregor?

Not andy Robertson the premier league winning, champions league winning most assists for a defender in the history of the Premier league?

Mate sorry you don't have a clue about football and have probably had a few drinks. Go to bed, your on ignore.

Truth hurts

[Butters Scotch]

3 minutes ago, Binos said:

Truth hurts

Absolutely steaming 

[Binos]

11 minutes ago, ogoftheskye said:

Even most of the English pundits I've endured seem very surprised at our failure to show up, that we have better quality than we've shown etc (maybe there's an element of wanting to avoid abuse on social media, but still). The likes of Binos typify the Souness ignorant cringe-type response. I cringe when I remember he was once seriously touted as a Scotland manager.

Mcginn was nowhere near it, again,  at this level 

Mcgregor is a nothing player

Robertson is looking past it

Adams a nobody 

Centre halfs lower league cloggers

And that's the good generation,  there is absolutely nothing coming through 

[scottsdad]

3 hours ago, Crùbag said:

How about:

Can you think of a manager who can organise and motivate a group of ordinary players to punch above their weight?

 

FWIW, I'm not sure but he has to be in with a shout.

Yogi Hughes thread for this pish

[ogoftheskye]

13 minutes ago, Binos said:

Mcginn was nowhere near it, again,  at this level 

Mcgregor is a nothing player

Robertson is looking past it

Adams a nobody 

Centre halfs lower league cloggers

And that's the good generation,  there is absolutely nothing coming through 

If this is your argument It's as well you're not Hungarian because you'd top yourself if you'd bothered to check the club level of a lot of their squad.

Imagine our reaction if we'd brought on a player plying his trade in South Korea, or a 39 year old playing in Serie B.

[1320Lichtie]

16 minutes ago, Binos said:

Mcginn was nowhere near it, again,  at this level 

Mcgregor is a nothing player

Robertson is looking past it

Adams a nobody 

Centre halfs lower league cloggers

And that's the good generation,  there is absolutely nothing coming through 

Awwww shut up man. Players always come through. Same thing gets said all the time and for as long as I can remember. 

 

 

[2426255]

1 hour ago, ogoftheskye said:

If this is your argument It's as well you're not Hungarian because you'd top yourself if you'd bothered to check the club level of a lot of their squad.

Imagine our reaction if we'd brought on a player plying his trade in South Korea, or a 39 year old playing in Serie B.

Of their squad maybe, but their first team is alright. The team that started against us has good players in it: 5 Bundesliga and 2 EPL. I think the squads are quite balanced personally:

2 Leipzig, 2 Ferencvaros, Liverpool, Bournemouth, Union Berlin, Freiburg, Hertha Berlin, Rapid Vienna, Barnsley. Who's the 39 year old? 

Edited June 24 by 2426255

[ogoftheskye]

4 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

Of their squad maybe, but their first team is alright. The team that started against us has good players in it. I think the squads are quite balanced personally. Who's the 39 year old?

Ehh humble correction here. Adam Nagy plays for Spezia in Serie B, but he's actually "only 28!". Not sure where I got the 39 thing from.

But, looking through the Hungary squad generally, the "squad players" (if that's a relevant term at international level) are playing at a lower level than ours.

[2426255]

20 minutes ago, ogoftheskye said:

But, looking through the Hungary squad generally, the "squad players" (if that's a relevant term at international level) are playing at a lower level than ours.

What do you take from that?  Scotland have a stronger bench? 

[ogoftheskye]

4 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

What do you take from that?  Scotland have a stronger bench? 

I take from that that Hungary have been consistently able to organise themselves into a team that is greater than the sum of their parts at qualification AND tournament level over the past few years. We have broadly better parts, but not enough to make a difference unless we do the same, a couple of runs in qualification aside.

That, or Orban has threatened to publicly flog them unless they get out of the group stages.

[2426255]

32 minutes ago, ogoftheskye said:

I take from that that Hungary have been consistently able to organise themselves into a team that is greater than the sum of their parts at qualification AND tournament level over the past few years. We have broadly better parts, but not enough to make a difference unless we do the same, a couple of runs in qualification aside.

That, or Orban has threatened to publicly flog them unless they get out of the group stages.

Do you think Hungary were better than us last night? I didn't think Hungary played a great game last night, they played a cautious, sensible game and defended well.

It's outcome based, isn't it? If Scotland had won then Hungary fans would undoubtedly been saying their performance was shit and asking why they didn't get on the front foot. Scotland fans wouldn't care a jot about the performance. Because we lost, we get to go through the inquisition. It's always the same in that respect.

Edited June 24 by 2426255

[ArtemisClydeFrog]

1 hour ago, ogoftheskye said:

If this is your argument It's as well you're not Hungarian because you'd top yourself if you'd bothered to check the club level of a lot of their squad.

Imagine our reaction if we'd brought on a player plying his trade in South Korea, or a 39 year old playing in Serie B.

I think this is a rather parochial take, likely founded on the premise that because our players are better known, or ply their trade in England, they're automatically superior to the lesser known Hungarians. 

I'm sure if Hungary happened to border England they'd have greater representation there but it wouldn't change their players' individual quality. 

I don't think there was much between the squads at all. But they do have higher level players in more impactful positions (GK, CB, attacking MF) than we do. As it is, I thought they were also shit, just slightly less than we were. 

Edited June 24 by ArtemisClydeFrog

[allyo]

2 hours ago, Binos said:

We're the worst team in the tournament 

Wake up 

There's a difference between worst team and worst players. Many of our players would walk straight into teams who have outperformed us at the Euros. 

[Chripper]

People who are blaming Clarke for our weaknesses are wrong. It's not black and white.

A massive part of the blame lies with the SPL and the non-existence of a foreign cap.

The 11-1 voting structure means that Scottish football is rigged as the Old Firm will always gang up on the other 10 teams.

When Rangers weren't in the SPL Scottish football had pretty much their only chance of making change.

With Aberdeen finishing 2nd, they developed delusion of grandeur. They stepped into Rangers's shoes by siding with Celtic. Little did Aberdeen know they were just keeping the bed warm for Rangers.

I don't know the logistics behind it but the SFA or the SPFL or the whomever have to shake things up by introducing a three foreigner rule to all four leagues.

The SFA performance schools are now 12 years old, they're brought through thr following players:

Connor Barron, Lewis Neilson, Dylan Reid, Ryan One, Max Johnston, Billy Gilmour Nathan Patterson, Liam Smith, Kerr Smith, Liam Morrison, Jay Hogarth, Alex Lowry, Calvin Ramsey, Rory MacLeod, Leon King, Aaron Hickey, Adam Devine, etc.

The Performance Schools are producing better players but it all counts for nothing if they all get hoovered up by English and overseas teams.

Scottish domestic teams are negligent. The Old Firm simply do not care about the Scottish national team.

Enough is enough. They should be forced to play Scottish players. If they refuse? Expel hem and wave them on their merry way.

It's time the Old Firm were taught that they aren't bigger than Scottish football.

Edited June 24 by Chripper

[BucksburnDandy]

I've deliberately held off posting until just now to try to let the initial emotional reaction pass and try to come up with something more rational. Doubtless, all this will have been covered previously but I need to get my thoughts written down.

 

The approach to the tournament has been a disaster from start to finish from Steve Clarke, his coaching staff and the SFA. A number of things in my view led to this woeful outcome.

 

Firstly, the excusing of mediocre performances from Cyprus away onwards combined with a series of friendlies against three of Europe's finest. Arranging England and France around the Spain away game was a sure route to 3 losses on the bounce and the start of some negative momentum, particularly combining that with a group of players who seem to lack belief in themselves. The defending in the England game was inexcusable, we put out a B team against the strongest team in Europe. That was shrugged off as good teams. Georgia away was excused due to injuries and Shankland sneaking a late equaliser and Norway at home defensively was excused because it was a party.

 

By that point, the momentum was in full flow. Amsterdam collapse was excused (including by my deluded self) because we competed for 70 minutes. Then we pick NI to play who absolutely had a point to prove. That game highlighted the issues of creating anything that came back to bite us in the Euros. At that stage, it may have been more wise to swallow the no dick heads policy and bring Ryan Fraser back into the fold, who is considerably better and more creative than Forrest and Morgan.

 

The approach in the the first and third games in particular also need questioned. The Germany game, it appears as though the camp wrote that game off before we even stepped on the park. Going out with that mentality with a group of players with fragile confidence was a recipe for disaster. I appreciate that it's not the done thing but with the roof caving in so badly so early, to not bring on Gilmour midway through the first half in the middle of the park was baffling.

 

The second game, I've seen a lot of people complaining about settling for a draw but very few managers would have risked losing that game late on. I will be fair and not go after him for that.

 

Last night, the tactical setup was both predictable and dire. It was obvious he was going to bring McKenna in for Tierney rather than go to a back 4. We learned nothing from the Czech game at the last Euros that 5 at the back without Tierney is fucking futile. That's not a go at McKenna who did absolutely fine.

 

The absolutely suicidal idea of keeping tight for 80 minutes then going all out kamikaze is one of the stupidest, most naive game plans I've ever witnessed in football. In a must win game, why would you play so conservatively for so long then lose all control of proceedings? Even the most dim layman would know that you change it at half time to bring on Shankland and Armstrong while still retaining a degree of control on the game.

 

To bring on Kenny McLean then move him to left back where he can't play well is strange. Taking Ralston off and leaving Hendry RB is even more baffling. In the last 5 minutes when you need a goal, your width from the back is provided by a centre half and central midfielder? Pull the other one Steve. Forrest was mentioned heavily being left behind Lewis Morgan, possibly a valid point. Hooking Gilmour when McGregor has been woeful again is another move that I don't understand at all.

 

There are other things that I will have omitted from that tactical setup last night. But genuinely, I don't understand why you would go from playing not to lose to balls out with no in between. It was absolutely wild stuff.

 

There is a huge mitigation for Clarke around the injuries to Hickey, Dykes and Ferguson in particular. That may well save his job.

 

I'm not convinced there's a massive pool of players out there that Clarke has missed calling up. Gauld gets social media going but I'm not convinced by the lad. Ryan Fraser is about the only obvious omission and while he is clearly a player with a shite attitude, he would have been more valuable in the tent pissing out, particularly last night when we have no one to run at their defence.

 

I'm not actively going to call for Clarke's head because of the significant improvements he has brought but equally if he resigned, I would feel it is the right time having reached the limits of his ability. We managed to look a poorer team this time round than in 2021, which is some feat. We made worse mistakes than the last Euros and came away embarrassed on the continental stage. I dread to think what autumn will be like if Clarke can't find a way to adapt the formation to bring in some more attacking pace, creativity and flair.

 

TL;DR - I'm still baffled and furious

[Butters Scotch]

2 minutes ago, Chripper said:

People who are blaming Clarke for our weaknesses are wrong. It's not black and white.

A massive part of the blame lies with the SPL and the non-existence of a foreign cap.

The 11-1 voting structure means that Scottish football is rigged as the Old Firm will always gang up on the other 10 teams.

When Rangers weren't in the SPL Scottish football had pretty much their only chance of making change.

With Aberdeen finishing 2nd, they developed delusion of grandeur. They stepped into Rangers's shoes by siding with Celtic. Little did Aberdeen know they were just keeping the bed warm for Rangers.

I don't know the logistics behind it but the SFA or the SPFL or the whomever have to shake things up by introducing a three foreigner rule to all four leagues.

The SFA performance schools are now 12 years old, they're brought through thr following players:

Connor Barron, Lewis Neilson, Dylan Reid, Ryan One, Max Johnston, Billy Gilmour Nathan Patterson, Liam Smith, Kerr Smith, Liam Morrison, Jay Hogarth, Alex Lowry, Calvin Ramsey, Rory MacLeod, Leon King, Aaron Hickey, Adam Devine, etc.

The Performance Schools are producing better players but it all counts for nothing if they all get hoovered up by English and overseas teams.

Scottish domestic teams are negligent. The Old Firm simply do not care about the Scottish national team.

Enough is enough. They should be forced to play Scottish players. If they refuse? Expell them and wave them on their merry way.

SlayerX /GilmourFan/Chripper (last two aliases banned from TAMB), you have already posted this absolute nonsense previously several times.

[Chripper]

Also, we were ranked 44th and now we're 34.

That ain't nothing.

It's a process of progression and we're improving. It's just about holding tight and trusting the process.

Edited June 24 by Chripper

[ogoftheskye]

16 minutes ago, ArtemisClydeFrog said:

I think this is a rather parochial take, likely founded on the premise that because our players are better known, or ply their trade in England, they're automatically superior to the lesser known Hungarians. 

I'm sure if Hungary happened to border England they'd have greater representation there but it wouldn't change their players' individual quality. 

I don't think there was much between the squads at all. But they do have higher level players in more impactful positions (GK, CB, attacking MF) than we do. As it is, I thought they were also shit, just slightly less than we were. 

I think many of our players are all the worse for taking up a gig in the English Championship when they could've set their sights further afield, so I'm not sure where you're getting that take from.