October Camp - What did we Learn?

[Skyline Drifter]

Time for a bit of reflection on what has been for me a relatively positive camp when a couple of weeks ago it looked like a potential disaster. That said, we still got one point from a possible six and there's plenty ammunition for the detractors to get stuck into if they want to. A lot of people stepped up and showed we've more depth maybe than we thought, but we potentially have more questions than answers in a number of areas.

Goalkeeper
He'll be 42 years old in two months but Craig Gordon came back from the retirement we (and he) probably thought he was in and did great. He's still our best goalkeeper for me when he's fit and playing. He's clearly not a long term solution to anything though so it does raise more questions. Assuming he keeps his club place under Hearts new manager then we can probably discount Zander Clark (and Liam Kelly) for the foreseeable future. McCracken and McCrorie aren't ready to be starters unless absolutely forced. I assume Gunn isn't badly hurt. He reported for camp before pulling out and it was a relatively minor rib injury so he'll be back for the November games. Do we risk pissing him off by keeping Gordon in? Would Gordon be prepared to continue as his number two? Personally I'd play Gordon, I think he's better, but I'd hope Gunn would have the right attitude about it. He's 13 years younger than Gordon and whilst he has his faults there's nobody over his shoulder immediately likely to stop him being first choice for the next 6 or 7 years.

Centre Backs
This forum was full of criticism of Hanley over the last two weeks, indeed the last two or three months but he's clearly Clarke's go to centre back and he's not put a foot wrong across two games to be honest. Unlike against Holland in March, Souttar this time seized the opportunity given to him by the absence of Tierney, McKenna and Hendry and Porteous being out of favour to put in two excellent performances. He's certainly given me something to think about there where I'd have had him 6th choice before this last week. With Tierney back imminently, but unlikely to play any club football before January, Clarke will have to decide whether to stick with the back four he's been playing or revert to a five to accommodate Tierney. I guess his fitness for November may answer the question anyway He's not training yet so probably won't be back for the November squads. McKenna probably will be as he was thought to have a minor hamstring problem a couple of weeks ago whilst Hendry was said by his club to be out for about 2 months back in early September. He might be touch and go for a return at the next camp.

I guess Tierney won't make it so we'll likely remain in a back four and that being the case, Souttar looks the more likely to partner Hanley right now but McKenna could come back in. Longer term I think it likely we'll be back in a five with Hanley between Tierney and Hendry though.

Full Backs
Robertson's our captain and leader and he'll clearly play though I didn't think he had a particularly great couple of games on the pitch. Far too deep and playing everyone onside for the Croatian equaliser, not sure where he was on the winner either and lucky to get away with a bad error in his own box against Portugal. If Tierney was back and we stuck with a four there might even be a conversation to be had about which one started at left back but we'll never reach that point.

Right back is far more positive than it's been for a while to be fair. Hickey is our best full back and hopefully will be back eventually but we're without him until well into 2025 so no point worrying about that now. Nathan Patterson is apparently likely to be on the bench for Everton this coming week which is a relief. However, the biggest compliment I can pay Tony Ralston right now is I'm not sure he comes straight back in! Ralston has been excellent in the last couple of games and, along with McLean, was probably our best player last night. As much as it was a great block last night I'm not going to get carried away about Nicky Devlin's ten minute cameo. In all likelihood that will be his only cap for Scotland and he can be proud of his efforts but he's 4th choice at best in that position (might also be behind McCrorie still too).

Midfield
McLean certainly did himself no harm last night and was probably man of the match for me. You'd still imagine a combination of McTominay, McGinn, Gilmour, Christie and Ferguson are ahead of him though and there is now a formation question mark about whether we play with wide men or four midfielders. Although he scored and generally played well in Croatia I thought Christie was poor last night. McTominay had two of his poorest games for us in two years. Gilmour's had better camps too to be honest. These games are not idea for him when he doesn't get time on the ball to dictate play.

Doak did fine, more in Croatia on the right than last night on the left, but there is a major question mark about where he can play if we revert to a five at the back when Tierney returns. He has a lot to work on with his final ball and being more careful in possession in his own half but lots of encouragement there. Gauld and Morgan did ok without setting any heather on fire. For me they continue to be bit parts for now. I doubt either will ever be a regular. Surprised Armstrong hasn't reappeared yet. I'd imagine if he's fit and doesn't get a call in November then he's probably done with Scotland. Which is a shame as for me he's still got something to offer.

Forwards
Continue to be an enigma and I don't think much changed this camp. After two good games against Poland and especially in Portugal, Dykes struggled to make the same impact in Croatia, though he did immediately make himself a nuisance when he came on with 10 to go last night. In reverse, Adams looked sharper than he has for about two years with Scotland in his 15 mins or whatever it was in Zagreb and was genuinely unlucky with the chip that drifted wide. However, he'd have been as well sat beside me last night for all he did. Yes, he's more likely to grab a goal than Dykes probably (though he still hasn't outscored him for Scotland) and he's maybe a little quicker, but he doesn't provide the same presence, top class defenders deal with him easily, he doesn't hold the ball up to the same degree and he doesn't get us up the pitch. Given current form Shankland's not even a question mark and Nisbet's lack of game time despite the late call up means he's got no chance. Conway maybe comes back into consideration if he's playing and scoring for Boro but for the moment it will remain horses for courses between Dykes and Adams presumably.

Management
Delighted for Clarke whose team has deserved more than one point from the opening four games really but this is tough company to be in. That said, we remain one win since Cyprus and could really do with one soon to take more pressure off. Croatia at home seems a better chance than Poland away but neither should be really feared. particularly if the likes of McGinn. McKenna and Patterson at least return to strengthen the squad.

Thoughts?

Edited Wednesday at 10:44 by Skyline Drifter

[accies1874]

I think the goalkeeping situation is the most interesting. Gunn had a good game against Portugal but made a bit of a mess of their equaliser, and Gordon was fine against Portugal (including one v good save) but didn't look great for Croatia's winner (could be harsh). 

There's not much between them, however Gunn being much better on the ball could tip the balance in his favour. Trying to play football with Gordon and Hanley in your backline is always gonna be uncomfortable.

[Skyline Drifter]

3 minutes ago, accies1874 said:

I think the goalkeeping situation is the most interesting. Gunn had a good game against Portugal but made a bit of a mess of their equaliser, and Gordon was fine against Portugal (including one v good save) but didn't look great for Croatia's winner (could be harsh). 

There's not much between them, however Gunn being much better on the ball could tip the balance in his favour. Trying to play football with Gordon and Hanley in your backline is always gonna be uncomfortable.

Possibly, though I'd argue the centre back position is just as interesting.

I was at the game and haven't see extended highlights yet but I'd have questioned Gordon more on the Croatia equaliser than the winner to be honest. Whatever he may or may not have been blamed for though it was made up for with that late save last night !

[Smokerson]

Gunn's mistakes in Germany and in the Portugal game are so basic that it doesn't matter  good he is with his feet. Even the feeble penalty against Poland managed to squirm under him. He is not good enough.

Keep Gordon in. 

[MarkoRaj]

Your criticism of Robertson is ridiculous.

He was excellent last night, up against 2 world class players and barely let anything by him

He also should have had an assist after a perfect cross put it on a plate for McTominay's sitter.

He kept the ball well mostly, apart from giving the ball away once. It really annoys me when players have 99 excellent touches of the ball but people only want to talk about the 1 mistake.

No surprise that all the score websites had him as their highest rated player last night

[craigkillie]

Robertson was definitely very good, I think he gets judged to an extremely high bar which none of our other players do.

[ArabFC]

51 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Gauld and Morgan did ok without setting any heather on fire. For me they continue to be bit parts for now. I doubt either will ever be a regular. Surprised Armstrong hasn't reappeared yet.

Gauld and Morgan came on yesterday and essentially played left-back and right-back in a back six, so we can't take much or anything from it. 

I've seen much more from Gauld than Morgan in the flashes they've had in recent games though - he needs to get a start at some point to show what he can do.

Armstrong has actually struggled to make much of an impact in Vancouver thus far from what I've seen, so...

[No_Problemo]

Billy Gilmour was also tremendous against Croatia. 

[MarkoRaj]

I think and hope that the subs that came on did enough to convince Clarke that they can be trusted in pressure situations.

Noticed last night that they came on around 64 mins rather than 70 odd. Sometimes fresh legs is all that matters, especially in games where players are doing a lot of chasing.

I said on another thread that Christie's high pressing was really important and why we can't afford to push him further back. I don't really think that's the case in a flat 4-2-3-1, especially with Doak added to the front 4. He was really poor on the ball last night and has been for a while.

You can make a case for him moving back into centre midfield but I'd probably have McLean as a better option in there. I can't see Clarke changing it now. I'd have Gauld ahead of Christie for certain games, he's so good on the ball and if he can back it up with the hard work down the channel that Christie does then it's a no brainer.

McGinn and Ferguson coming back will give us genuine options so that's something to look forward to.

I hope Doak is a mainstay now, the more experience he gets the better he will be for it. He gives us an option like no one else and I still have hopes he'll be a top top player in a few years.

[Quentin Taranbino]

18 minutes ago, No_Problemo said:

Billy Gilmour was also tremendous against Croatia. 

I thought Gilmour was really good last night as well (apart from one risky back pass). Always so calm in possession and never looking to hoof it up the park.

It's been mentioned before but I do sometimes wonder if his quick vision is too far ahead of some of his team mates, especially in defence. Sometimes his team mates aren't expecting it from him so soon.

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, MarkoRaj said:

Your criticism of Robertson is ridiculous.

He was excellent last night, up against 2 world class players and barely let anything by him

He also should have had an assist after a perfect cross put it on a plate for McTominay's sitter.

He kept the ball well mostly, apart from giving the ball away once. It really annoys me when players have 99 excellent touches of the ball but people only want to talk about the 1 mistake.

No surprise that all the score websites had him as their highest rated player last night

 

1 hour ago, craigkillie said:

Robertson was definitely very good, I think he gets judged to an extremely high bar which none of our other players do.

All about opinions. I didn't think he was great across the two games. You guys watching on tv or in the stadium? You do see things differently. I accept he should have had an assist but I just think he's had better games. He wasn't helped by having Doak in front of him right enough as he's not offering much defensively to help, particularly on his "wrong" side. He's a far better player (for Scotland) when he has Tierney in tandem for me. Boy behind me last night was giving him pelters for the whole game!

I don't think he's the best defensively, he was definitely well out of line with the rest of the back four on the Croatian equaliser, playing them all onside. I saw him do the same a couple of times right in line with me last night first half though they led to nothing important.

[Quentin Taranbino]

I think for me, the biggest change from this time last year (or even earlier this year) is a lack of definitive starters and nailed on players. This can of course be seen as a positive when you are playing well and winning games, but as a team struggling to get results, it can be a worry.

A year or so ago, if you had asked me what our strongest eleven was, I would be fairly confident giving you at least eight or nine of those names and I suspect most Scotland supporters would have had the same names. If i was asked that same question now, it would be much less;

McTominay, Gilmour, Robertson, McGinn, Hickey - these are for me now the only five players that we have that I would be confident of starting every single game if they were available, regardless of their club form. They all have enough in the bank and have shown more than enough in their previous games that they have become almost un-droppable for me now if available for selection. These in my opinion are our five most important players. I know some might not quite put McGinn in that camp, but for me he is there. I almost included Tierney in there too but depending on formation, there may not always be a space for him.

Centre half, goalkeeper and striker continue to be an issue;

At the back, we have four or five centre halves who there is little between in all honesty but none of them seem to be able to really nail down any sort of long term place or partnership in the team due a variety of factors. Given they are all aged 25 -33, I think it's fair to say none of them at this point will see much club career improvement from where they are now. None of them are suddenly going to be signing for great clubs and massively improve their game from where they are now. We really need to have some younger guys coming through in this position to seriously make an impact otherwise this position is unlikely to get much better than it is currently.

Goalkeeper like above is an obvious worry. Even if Gordon keeps the gloves for now which he probably should do, Gunn in all likelihood gets them back pretty soon and keeps them for a few years as the 'least sh1t option' which isn't a great place to be in. More worrying is that there isn't even a glimpse on the horizon of some young keepers with potential that you could see coming on the scene in the next couple of years.

Up top is a current worry but I feel like is saved somewhat by the fact we have a good midfield, wide players coming through and a general attacking goal threat from our midfielders, but we do need someone up front who can sparkle, at least a little. Adams I feel is much better in a two whenever I have seen him at club level but he won't get that chance alot with Scotland so he is often anonymous. Dykes, whilst strong and a nuisance, just doesn't have speed or quality I feel this Scotland team needs when it attacks and it's a real concern for him at club level if he doesn't find his feet, I think he will struggle to move up the pyramid club wise. Neither Dykes or Adams are great but both probably better options currently than the likes of Nisbet and Shankland. You really hope someone the likes of Conway, Wilson, Mebude, One, Wales or Ure can really step up in the next two or three years.

[Skyline Drifter]

40 minutes ago, Quentin Taranbino said:

I thought Gilmour was really good last night as well (apart from one risky back pass). Always so calm in possession and never looking to hoof it up the park.

It's been mentioned before but I do sometimes wonder if his quick vision is too far ahead of some of his team mates, especially in defence. Sometimes his team mates aren't expecting it from him so soon.

I thought Gilmour had one of his poorer games for us last night and struggled to impose himself on the game for whatever reason, certainly first half when he was largely right in front of me. I'm maybe being harsh on him in Croatia. You see less of a game in person anyway never mind being behind the goal and behind a running track away from the pitch. Wasn't a great view.

[Ludo*1]

You can tell that McCracken shared the same coaches as Angus Gunn as he's very Gunn-esque. Not at Gunn's level yet, but an excellent kicker of the ball - probably better than some outfielders but tends to let simple shots beat him.

I much prefer the old school Leighton, Rab Douglas (maybe not so much for Scotland!) style of keeper in that you covered your eyes when the ball was at their feet but trusted them to come for crosses and keep the ball out of the net.

This modern style keeper of being an additional sweeper in the mould of someone like Ederson rather than just being brilliant at keeping the ball out of the net and claiming crosses infuriates me to no end.

Angus Gunn is 6'5 and at no point have I seen him dominate his box - that's a trainable trait. Annoys the life out of me with keepers these days.

Gordon is known for being a bit glued to his line and being a bit weak at kicking but he's such a calming presence and pulls off wonder saves. The trade off is Gunn can kick the ball. I know who I'm having as first choice personally.

 

[Skyline Drifter]

20 minutes ago, Quentin Taranbino said:

I think for me, the biggest change from this time last year (or even earlier this year) is a lack of definitive starters and nailed on players. This can of course be seen as a positive when you are playing well and winning games, but as a team struggling to get results, it can be a worry.

A year or so ago, if you had asked me what our strongest eleven was, I would be fairly confident giving you at least eight or nine of those names and I suspect most Scotland supporters would have had the same names. If i was asked that same question now, it would be much less;

McTominay, Gilmour, Robertson, McGinn, Hickey - these are for me now the only five players that we have that I would be confident of starting every single game if they were available, regardless of their club form. They all have enough in the bank and have shown more than enough in their previous games that they have become almost un-droppable for me now if available for selection. These in my opinion are our five most important players. I know some might not quite put McGinn in that camp, but for me he is there. I almost included Tierney in there too but depending on formation, there may not always be a space for him.

This is a fair point though I'd have Tierney in there definitely so make it six.

To be fair part of that is age. A year back Gunn was a certain starter because Gordon was out long term (two years ago Gordon was a certain starter) and McGregor was also one and has retired himself out of it now.

If we still had McGregor and Gunn hadn't got injured then in reality we'd still be at 8 certain starters and arguing over which two centre backs and which striker started.

[Distant Doonhamer]

Yep all about opinions.

I thought Gilmour was excellent in Croatia and decent last night too (I was at the game and had a decent view).

Gordon should be our number one keeper albeit that's clearly short term.

The much maligned Ralston, Hanley and Mclean all did well in both games. I might even have given Ralston man of the match last night but Souttar was excellent. If Souttar is fit and playing regularly he's an excellent central defender.

[Butters Scotch]

48 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

 

All about opinions. I didn't think he was great across the two games. You guys watching on tv or in the stadium? You do see things differently. I accept he should have had an assist but I just think he's had better games. He wasn't helped by having Doak in front of him right enough as he's not offering much defensively to help, particularly on his "wrong" side. He's a far better player (for Scotland) when he has Tierney in tandem for me. Boy behind me last night was giving him pelters for the whole game!

I don't think he's the best defensively, he was definitely well out of line with the rest of the back four on the Croatian equaliser, playing them all onside. I saw him do the same a couple of times right in line with me last night first half though they led to nothing important.

Mental take.

Robertson is very consistent in every game he plays for Scotland and was good once again in this camp, he made one error but apart from that he was excellent. I find it weird that because he plays regularly for Liverpool then he gets judged more harshly than others. 

For the Croatia equaliser, he was slightly ahead of the rest of the defensive line but then he had three Crotatian players forming a triangle around him and was probably trying to cut out the short pass into Modric at the edge of the box as he was the main danger. We seem to play this tactic a lot against the better teams where we keep our full backs to tucked in leaving the wide areas free so I don't think you can really blame this all on Robertson. Also, Gvardiol played a worldie long ball in behind him and our two CB's ran backwards into the box and forgot about the striker they were marking seconds before that who just delayed his run. 

Also, Doak is a hard worker defensively, reading comments from Middlesbrough fans also they seem to think the same thing when he plays for them. You have to bear in mind also that he is one our main counter attacking outlets so has to be a little further afield at times than other attackers and he has been kept up top at defending corners also for example so can be out of position at times.

[The Moonster]

2 hours ago, craigkillie said:

Robertson was definitely very good, I think he gets judged to an extremely high bar which none of our other players do.

The OP saying Hanley "never out a foot wrong" whilst going on to criticise Robertson is probably a pretty good exhibit of this. 

[Gordon EF]

Just now, The Moonster said:

The OP saying Hanley "never out a foot wrong" whilst going on to criticise Robertson is probably a pretty good exhibit of this. 

Yep. If Ralston was performing like Robertson, folk would be picking their jaws up off the floor. As it is, Ralston will get praised for managing to not shit the bed.

[Butters Scotch]

What have we learned?

We have a bit more of an attacking threat playing this different formation now and Clarke is willing to change things which is a positive sign. That has made us more open defensively but we were shipping a lot of goals playing a five at the back anyway whilst creating hee haw. 

Seeing Gauld making these cameos makes it all the more frustrating as to why he hasn't been included in previous squads as he has that bit of quality to create chances. Would like to see him start in a more central attacking position at some point but can't see that happen as we have a few of these. However, I'm not fully convinced that McTominay's best position is a CAM or support striker as he isn't fantastic at dribbling in small spaces and sometimes can't get involved in the game when further forward like last night. He's at his best when more box to box, running from a deeper positon IMO (Frank Lampard type role). 

Souttar's passing from deep was important last night, he made some excellent passes through the lines that got us up the pitch into good positions and thought defensively, he was very good. Based on this performance, I think he has to be our starting CB for now and hopefully he keeps this form up.

Hanley next to him wasn't too bad either and think it is between him and Hendry for the other CB position. Hendry and Souttar would certainly give us two ball playing CB's and it may help us keeping possession better and breaking through the press without having to punt it.

Ralston had a good game against Portugal, kept Jota very quiet but then was put on his arse by Leao which really should of turned into a goal but got away with it thankfully. We have to keep persisiting with him and he is still young enough to improve his game. I don't particualrly rate Patterson as a good defender either, he's not kicked on at Everton or played great for Scotland. I can see him being another Championship level plodder in the next couple of years but it could be a coin flip between these two for the RB position. 

Christie had probably his worst game in a Scotland shirt last night, kept giving the ball away and either fouling or getting skinned by Mendes. I think once McGinn is back then he will be on the bench as he doesn't necessarily add much to our attack which we struggle with at times.

Doak needs to be starting every game for us now. I thought he was still pretty good on the left as he was on the right against Croatia and I think LM could be his main position in this team going forward as McGinn is more suited to the RM role where he can cut onto his left foot. 

Against the better nations where we will be chasing shadows most of the game, It's a toss up between Dykes and Adams for me. Against the weaker nations it should be Adams hands down, just a much better technical footballer.