October Camp - What did we Learn?

[Butters Scotch]

35 minutes ago, Gordopolis said:

I 100% get the reluctance to get burned again with unwarranted over enthusiasm. I too got carried away over Burkinho (or Burker King as he turned out to be)

I'm trying to stay balanced - it's alright to be excited but definitely let's not pretend he's anything like the finished article, or that there's any guarantee he ever will be.

It's just nice to have an 18 yo differently skilled attacker in the mix, if nothing else.

For me, it's similar to when you saw Gilmour play for Chelsea as a teenager, you could see whenever he played he just had so much ability and should be starting for Scotland.

Doak obviously a different sort of player but he has a lot of natural ability, great first touch, dribbles really well, blessed with searing pace, works hard defensively too but just needs to add that final product to his game. Not quite at the same level yet but he reminds me a lot of Jeremy Doku actually.

 

[MarkoRaj]

I remember being optimistic about Burke and excited when he got his big move at such a young age but I don't think he ever passed the eye test for me.

I was always thinking that someone must have seen something I didn't.

Doak is something else entirely. His final ball doesn't look great but remember this is international level. He's younger than most of those guys in the 21s. He also rattled in goals and assists in the Liverpool youth team for fun.

You're right not to want to get carried away but I'm all in

[No_Problemo]

2 hours ago, Butters Scotch said:

For me, it's similar to when you saw Gilmour play for Chelsea as a teenager, you could see whenever he played he just had so much ability and should be starting for Scotland.

Doak obviously a different sort of player but he has a lot of natural ability, great first touch, dribbles really well, blessed with searing pace, works hard defensively too but just needs to add that final product to his game. Not quite at the same level yet but he reminds me a lot of Jeremy Doku actually.

 

I was actually about to say similar too, Doak is absolutely nothing like Burke - as you say, for a start he has a tremendous first touch. In the few games I’ve watched him I’ve seen him pluck big passes out the sky effortlessly. 

ETA - I genuinely don’t know why we would go drop Doak for McGinn and go back to having a midfield of central midfielders - it doesn’t work playing lots is similar players together. For me the only options to get McGinn back in the team is for Christie or McLean 

Edited Friday at 19:34 by No_Problemo

[Old Bing]

5 hours ago, Gordopolis said:

I 100% get the reluctance to get burned again with unwarranted over enthusiasm. I too got carried away over Burkinho (or Burker King as he turned out to be)

I'm trying to stay balanced - it's alright to be excited but definitely let's not pretend he's anything like the finished article, or that there's any guarantee he ever will be.

It's just nice to have an 18 yo differently skilled attacker in the mix, if nothing else.

I don't think we've seen anything like enough to judge what the guy can do other than his physical attributes.

What I would say is Jurgen Klopp is a pretty bloody good judge of a footballer. And he fast tracked him in to the side. I very much doubt he doesn't have a final ball. 

I think folk, (not you) need to chill out a bit. He's an 18 year old who's barely played and is getting his first taste of regular first team football.

[Gordon EF]

On 18/10/2024 at 17:50, Butters Scotch said:

For me, it's similar to when you saw Gilmour play for Chelsea as a teenager, you could see whenever he played he just had so much ability and should be starting for Scotland.

Doak obviously a different sort of player but he has a lot of natural ability, great first touch, dribbles really well, blessed with searing pace, works hard defensively too but just needs to add that final product to his game. Not quite at the same level yet but he reminds me a lot of Jeremy Doku actually.

 

The point for me when I thought Doak was the real deal was the u21s win away in Belgium. Doak was still just 17 and looked by some distance the best player on the park. And that Belgium team had a fee guys at big clubs with big market values and a few years ahead of him.

He should be involved with the full team. In saying that, I'm fairly confident the u21s would have gotten into the Euros play offs if he was still playing with them.

[Old Bing]

2 hours ago, Gordon EF said:

The point for me when I thought Doak was the real deal was the u21s win away in Belgium. Doak was still just 17 and looked by some distance the best player on the park. And that Belgium team had a fee guys at big clubs with big market values and a few years ahead of him.

He should be involved with the full team. In saying that, I'm fairly confident the u21s would have gotten into the Euros play offs if he was still playing with them.

Not sure about that, clownshoes Gemmill would probably have left him on the bench. Or played him at right back.

[ArabFC]

On 18/10/2024 at 17:50, Butters Scotch said:

For me, it's similar to when you saw Gilmour play for Chelsea as a teenager, you could see whenever he played he just had so much ability and should be starting for Scotland.

Doak obviously a different sort of player but he has a lot of natural ability, great first touch, dribbles really well, blessed with searing pace, works hard defensively too but just needs to add that final product to his game. Not quite at the same level yet but he reminds me a lot of Jeremy Doku actually.

I knew Gilmour would be a key player for Scotland for the next decade plus, within 5 minutes of watching him play his first game for Chelsea.

Doak is not in the same category. His pace alone will guarantee him a whole heap of caps (see Ikechi Anya) but I'm not completely convinced yet that his overall game will live up to his potential.

[Butters Scotch]

2 hours ago, ArabFC said:

I knew Gilmour would be a key player for Scotland for the next decade plus, within 5 minutes of watching him play his first game for Chelsea.

Doak is not in the same category. His pace alone will guarantee him a whole heap of caps (see Ikechi Anya) but I'm not completely convinced yet that his overall game will live up to his potential.

 

I think you can see there is enough ability there already to suggest Doak will be a key player for Scotland for next decade, there is no one else like him in our team and within a couple of years can be our talisman as long he develops as expected. 

Now whether he lives up to being a Liverpool class winger is a different story but I would be more than happy if he is performing well at a mid table premier league level team 

[Ewanandmoreagain]

8 hours ago, ArabFC said:

I knew Gilmour would be a key player for Scotland for the next decade plus, within 5 minutes of watching him play his first game for Chelsea.

Doak is not in the same category. His pace alone will guarantee him a whole heap of caps (see Ikechi Anya) but I'm not completely convinced yet that his overall game will live up to his potential.

 

At the very least  Ikechi Anya. scored a classic goal against Germany  ( away )

[TPAFKA Jersey 2]

On 17/10/2024 at 11:10, forameus said:

It showed largely what has always been the case, and what, surprisingly, was actually brought up by the main commentator on Saturday's game.  We are simply playing at a level of competition we're not equipped to deal with more often than not.  That's not necessarily a defeatist attitude, as football isn't as simple as that.  On our day, we can beat Croatia, Poland and Portugal home or away.  But if we have 100 days, very few of them are going to be our day.  The sides we're up against are seasoned at this level (maybe not Poland, but certainly Croatia and Poland) and are more comfortable playing there.  On average, we're going to lose home and away to Croatia and Portugal, and have it come down to who is less shit between ourselves and Poland.  We managed to get a creditable point against Portugal, but we'll likely still need to get a decent result in Poland to avoid relegation.

But...that's kind of to be expected.  I think we sit at that awkward place where we're a very competent League B side.  If we go into that pot, we're going to be amongst the favourites to win our group, and it can be considered a failure if we don't.  But once we do go up, we'll be very much favourites to go straight back down again. Maybe in future our young players can really develop and we'll improve that position, but in the next couple of years, I think that's basically our level.  It's shit to watch and experience, but unless we're outright embarrassed in the games - which I don't think we have, it's just been a base level of miserable - I don't think this has necessarily been the worst few months for us.  The record runs are inflated by the opponents we've had (some chosen, still bafflingly).

Don’t disagree at all mate with the sentiment of your post, but just to be clear, prior to the last international break we had played Croatia 6 times and only lost once. 2 wins and 3 draws. 

[The Algebraist]

I do actually think we're starting to find our level in this league, at least against the weaker teams. All of these games have been close and we have usually offered some threat. But for the odd moment of stupidity or snatched shot we would have had more to show for it and that's with half a team out. In fact outside the defense the injuries may actually have helped us because we needed the refresh.

It could be that our experience is finally paying off, just on a longer time frame than planned.

 

[A Diamond For Me]

On 18/10/2024 at 17:50, Butters Scotch said:

For me, it's similar to when you saw Gilmour play for Chelsea as a teenager, you could see whenever he played he just had so much ability and should be starting for Scotland.

Doak obviously a different sort of player but he has a lot of natural ability, great first touch, dribbles really well, blessed with searing pace, works hard defensively too but just needs to add that final product to his game. Not quite at the same level yet but he reminds me a lot of Jeremy Doku actually.

 

 

Ben Doaku, imo

[Skyline Drifter]

On 16/10/2024 at 12:20, craigkillie said:

Robertson was definitely very good, I think he gets judged to an extremely high bar which none of our other players do.

Pat Nevin on Five Live tonight saying how he thinks Robertson's been off his game recently and wasn't very good in the two recent Scotland games either.

I still think he was poor defensively across the two games, certainly by his own standards.

[Butters Scotch]

35 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Pat Nevin on Five Live tonight saying how he thinks Robertson's been off his game recently and wasn't very good in the two recent Scotland games either.

I still think he was poor defensively across the two games, certainly by his own standards.

What a load of pish man

[MarkoRaj]

8 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Pat Nevin on Five Live tonight saying how he thinks Robertson's been off his game recently and wasn't very good in the two recent Scotland games either.

I still think he was poor defensively across the two games, certainly by his own standards.

Pat Nevin is a fud.

I noticed Gary Neville had it in for him after he got turned by an in-form Madueke on Sunday.

Even though Chelsea didn't get a sniff down his side from about 20 mins onward

He had a great block at the end as well

[forameus]

On 22/10/2024 at 18:50, TPAFKA Jersey 2 said:

Don’t disagree at all mate with the sentiment of your post, but just to be clear, prior to the last international break we had played Croatia 6 times and only lost once. 2 wins and 3 draws. 

Yeah, that's right, going back to 2000.  We've had a pretty decent record all things considered.  But at the same time, in that period Croatia's record for major tournaments vs ours reads just a bit worse.

1996 - Groups / Quarters
1998 - Groups / 3rd
2000 - DNQ / DNQ
2002 - DNQ / Groups
2004 - DNQ / Groups
2006 - DNQ / Groups
2008 - DNQ / QF
2010 - DNQ / DNQ
2012 - DNQ / Groups
2014 - DNQ / Groups
2016 - DNQ / R16
2018 - DNQ / Runners-up
2020 - Groups / R16
2022 - DNQ / 3rd
2024 - Groups / Groups

That's kind of the point I'm trying to make.  We'll get the odd good result against sides, we've definitely got it in us to do so.  We've probably had more than we perhaps deserve against Croatia it seems.  But Croatia will then more than likely go on to be far more consistent when they need to be, and we won't.  The 2 wins we managed against them were both in the same campaign, yet at the end of it, they went to the World Cup and we didn't.  

I think we are making steps to close that gap.  I think we would be amongst the favourites to win a League B group more often than not (although the new playoff system could throw up some horrible groups), and that's what we should be aiming for.  We need to be going into qualifying groups with confidence that we can win every game that isn't against the top seed, then go into those games with more than just a "lucky punch" kind of attitude.  If we can do that, we can probably start hanging in a League A type setting, and who knows, maybe even get out of the groups the odd time at a tournament.