Handsome_Devil

I'd rather we didn't have to change the manager either but ultimately we can't wait until it's too late - if we get to no wins in 13 and are in the bottom two, it's decision time for the transfer window. I'd love nothing more than for SK to prove me wrong but if we don't take action pre-xmas then the logical alternative is committing to at least March (to avoid a repeat of last year's farcical timings). And as said before, if you concede two or three most weeks there's absolutely nothing to suggest a change coming.

Wilkinson arguably earned a start in Tuesday but Biereth isn't getting dropped and I'd be surprised if he replaces Obika. I'd not be unhappy to see him as a 10 but behind that pair but that's bold in an absolute six-pointer and means moving Spittal and Slatter back a place compared to their natural positions. Gent replacing SOD has been a must for me for a while but I see little reason Kettlewell will change now.

Agree with the comments...in live time there was so little from Mugabi it wasn't a foul but surprised it passed trial by slow motion. Same for Paton, yellow fine but a VAR red all day long unless you're Celtic last week. I actually think had it not been directly after the sending off Dundee would have had a penalty for the tussle... not that it should have been but 'these days' etc. Find it disconcerting that after 30 years of being a clown show Dundee are actually building a solid side. I felt from early in they wouldn't go down but will upgrade them to pushing for the top six (albeit missing out this time) now.

Everyone though that but Slattery sat out yesterday after his sixth v Celtic.

It'll actually resolve Kettlewell's mental disconnect at complaining we sat back at 1-0 while playing Butcher in midfield. I was quite happy to see Butcher in midfield given the bad decision to stop pressing had already seemingly been made - it should have, in theory, protected the defence more than Paton being deepest (clearly not!). However, expecting our midfield three to press aggressively with Butcher in it was just never going to happen. I'm always 100% pressing for us in the league because the advantages massively outweigh the risks. Blaney-butcher-mugabi at the back is certainly worth a try and let's be honest, Davor at six or Wilkinson at 10 with Spittal and Slattery isnt an end of the world gamble when you're on 4/33 or whatever.

Dundee played well enough but at 2-2 the score was entirely fair. Clearly we need to fix the defence but for the love of all that is holy start Gent on the left against County. I'm not against 3-5-2, especially when we have little alternative, but we're turning off over and over again. Remarkably we never look like scoring but score a bucket load, but until we go back to being even remotely professional at the back we're in deep, deep trouble. I never like saying single games have to be won but rather group them together. Five points or more from Dundee to St Johnstone would be fine, four would just about keep us ok...so if there's no win in the next two it's time to try for a caretaker bounce against st Mirren and a new permanent boss in by Livingston.

Not that I disagree but having not sacked him after Hearts the decision was basically to give him until St Johnstone next week and losing Tuesday won't change that. It's notable and admirable the players are still keeping going for him but it looks beyond salvation without a change in the dugout.

I'll be amazed if he's manager 10 days from now.

Got what we wanted in team selection (lwb apart obviously) and the positive early goal but if you defend like an absolute pub team you'll get beat... massive improvement needed.

Motherwell fans have an artificially low view of Ferguson because he never got out of Alan Campbell's pocket against us. You could see on Sportscene he was good, he was talked up in the media all the time and when you finally see him in person he doesn't kick the ball. It's obviously not fair or representative but a quirk which created a strong impression. He probably caught something from Joe Lewis.

It's certainly a fair point but it's a we'll never know. You can certainly argue that if, for whatever reason, he wasn't ready to move abroad then going and being unhappy would definitely have a poor choice. That probably not in doubt and fwiw I'm certain if asked now he'd still say Celtic was the right move. On the other hand, maybe he'd have thrived abroad despite his concerns and have spent years playing not only with but against much better players than he got staying in the same league (Euro tonkings apart), maybe that would have kept him in the Euro 2024 squad etc.

I'd be amazed if he gets an AC Milan level move from Celtic but if Lewis Ferguson is linked with Juventus (caveats aplenty on the truth here ofc), there's no reason Turnbull's next move won't then be to a top club - if he wants it. I think there's a good comparison to Tierney and Robertson. Tierney reached a high level quicker but stagnated at Celtic while Robertson improved and overtook him at Liverpool. Robertson eventually peaked at the mental level he did but Tierney could basically catch up through his time at Arsenal. Tbh I think a lot of depends on Turnbull, what he wants and what drives him. There's a lot of suggestions he was happy to stay local for family reasons and given he then played Celtic like a fiddle for wages in top, being critical of the move because it wasn't the best for his career misses the point somewhat. It's not untrue, it's just wasn't his priority. If that's changed we'll see where his path takes him but if he decides home(ish) is for him instead, he'll easily make a further packet playing in the north of England and good luck to him.

We repeat all the time that the margins are baw-hair thin - but while you can go winless for a few, there's a point when you're not unlucky but just shite. Or in shite form, at least. I also think there's no doubt that not only the results of a season matter but their order. I've said before the past is a weak currency in football - you can take the old market phrase that the past is no guarantee of future results and apply it here. If Alexander had started 2021/22 patchily it would have been entirely expected. Reaching Europe with a strong finish would suggest better to come. Instead, for all he produced an unexpectedly brilliant August-December, by May everyone had made their mind up on the direction of travel. You win the game, avoid relegation or lift the cup and you get a pat on the back but from the next day the question is what can you do next. It's why in our current run SK's credit in the bank is worth much less now than the achievement of it at the time.

Right enough... Watson took the home game v rangers. https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12364925.search-starts-for-well-after-mcleish-joins-hibs-clark-ready-to-fill-the-hot-seat/ Interesting when we're considering SK: Hands On Hibs, said they would get behind McLeish. However ... it was not healthy for a club like Hibs to have appointed four managers - including Jocky Scott - in a 16-month period." Turned out fine for them , er...

That'd be my understanding. Tbh if it is banned it makes Kettlewell's planning this week massively easier without having to figure out who to drop for Obika.

Maybe my mind is playing tricks on me but didn't McLeish manage us for the last time v Rangers in the cup (Stevie Woods and all that), leave in the day or two after but only take Andy Watson as assistant after we got tanked in the replay?

After 258 winless games this is seems a must win but given Dundee's form and the next two it's more of a must not lose to me, so long as we play well in the draw. But what it'll be in the end bugger knows.

I don't. We obviously desperately need a win but right now Dundee are better than us. As much as we need to raise our game, we'll at least encounter an opponent who wants to play and while that brings danger, it can open things up as well. I think it's actually a more ideal follow-up to Celtic than St Johnstone at home where only the young and naive will not have the fear about what will be, win or lose, a gigantic shitshow.

When reminiscing about that it's also the day that Brian Martin's career effectively ended. Peerless for a spell but there's a reason father time is undefeated, as they say.

I also remember clapping the alloa fans, there were a couple of hundred in the north end of the Main Stand. McLeish soldiered on for ages when he was clearly a lost cause with us, it'd never happen in the modern era. The Hibs game to finish was hilarious mind, we were 3-2 up at half time having been 2-0 down inside five minutes.

In a long list of pathetic performances, that was one of the most disgraceful we've produced...we never even looked like scoring other than when one of their defenders almost passed it into his own net from 40 yards. They did indeed win on penalties, Philliben (of course) and Falconer missed. Just looked up the record myself too and amused to see Alloa unbeaten at FP in over 50 years, they'll arrive full of confidence!

Got to be thrilled with that, some revenge on alloa long overdue!

I've not felt this uninspired for the Scottish Cup draw since last year.

Five points from the next four gets us back to a PPG of 1 - but given the run to come we're really needing at least seven to avoid being under huge pressure into the Xmas period. And the Livingston game is already circled as being not for the faint of heart.

Well St Johnstone drew at Celtic a few weeks before sacking their manager this season, Hammell lost twice 2-1 to them when we were competitive while otherwise shite, County went close a couple of time last season when Jordan White inexplicably started scoring v the OF and that's just off my head recently. Clearly a comfortable loss more likely than not but going back a long way I can remember plenty poor Motherwell teams who raised their game against the OF and benefited from the situation of having virtually none of the ball (before these stats became so common). Definitely agree on the reason for optimism and, for the love of God, finally scoring the first goal again next week would make a massive difference.