HanoMaSano

I have pointed this out and put up the calculations involved. For the diddy clubs to achieve the same level of income as this season, next seasons deal could be cut by 40%. The rest of the shortfall would be absorbed by Celtic and obviously Rangers would get none. So the pie would have to vastly smaller for the diddy clubs to actually lose money out of Rangers going bust.

Yeah, that pretty much sums up the opinion of every Rangers fan I talk to. If you try and explain that actually the punishment was more relating to the deliberate withholding of PAYE and VAT then they'll let you know: "that wis Whyte no ra Beerzz"

I don't believe he's just peddling the sh!te based on what the SPL chairmen have told him. He raises his arse to Rupert Murdoch, but wants to make sure he gets the best deal for doing so. A large part of his job is to ensure that the SPL as an entity maximises commercial income, so in fairness to him he's doing exactly what is needed to try and get as much money from sponsors and TV as he can. ie. By smoothing the road for Rangers to come back in. To hell with sporting integrity and fairness, not in his job description. He's got no interest in what's best for Scottish Football, what's best for any individual clubs or to see justice done in the SPL. His only concern is justifying his huge salary to his employers (the SPL clubs). In this I think he's doing a rare job as the chairmen collectively think the sun shine's out of his arse. He achieves this by the smarmy personality, peddling disingenuous half-truths and spin that would see him fit in comfortably with the sort of characters you normally find in office in Westminster rather than Hampden.

The debt is huge, it will almost certainly now result in them forming a Newco. But the longer this drags on the more it seems obvious that that Newco will get straight back into the SPL with minimal sanctions. The deal to buy the club is reliant on the CVA going through. But if the CVA doesn't go through then Green doesn't want the club, only its assets. Supposedly a price has already been agreed for the stadium etc. (why this is allowed I don't know as surely it has to go on the open market to try and achieve the highest possible amount for the creditors during liquidation, but since when has anything that H&D done in this fiasco made any sense)

These administrators have been a f*cking joke since day 1. There really is no excuse for that sort of waste from the people charged with cutting costs at the company to achieve maximum return for the creditors. How does wasting money on hotel rooms increase the value for the creditors? It doesn't and therefore is an expense that should have been done away with. Simple as that.

The prices wouldn't really match up as I had to (understandably) go back further to find the Derby attendances. So yeah, there may be slight differences in price but the crowds would likely be bigger at the derby, Rangers take the 5% charge off of the prices and the currents are planning to Boycott Tannadice next year anyway. With all that going on, to use gate money as an excuse to keep them in the league seems very thin from Utd. I'd also suggest that St Johnstone could boost their crowds by kicking Rangers to touch.. Last 4 visits of Dundee to Perth (and this is 1st div crowds): 7238 4307 6072 6097 Last 4 visits of the Currents to Perth in the SPL: 6459 6577 6459 5820

You, my good sir, have just once and for all disproved the existence of the Multiverse... There is no possible universe where that man isn't a grade A c**t. I expect to be seeing you picking up the Nobel prize for Physics with work like that. EDIT: In fact, have a greenie for such a scientific breakthrough

You're right that it's not enough. But it's exactly what will happen unless he situation changes drastically. The only hope for justice now is that there are some revelations in this documentary, or in the double contracts investigation, that are so damning that the SFA are forced to act out of fear that UEFA will come down on them like a ton of bricks (Swiss FA and Sion style). There is no hope of justice from the SPL, but they can't approve a transfer of league share unless the SFA membership is transferred as well. It's a sad day when you're having to rely on the SFA to do anything. Never mind come down hard on (one of) the establishment team(s). I don't hold out much hope.

Doncaster actually gives me the boak every time he opens his mouth about anything. Of course a Newco is different to a CVA. To say otherwise is ridiculous. He also has previous for outright lying to us to put a more positive spin on whatever he was peddling at the time.. To be honest I don't trust the chairmen of the SPL clubs as far as I could throw Doncaster's bulbous head, but I can't help think that their minds have been clouded by doomsday scenarios that are being thrown about from every angle.. Some of the figures I hear banded about seem quite frankly stupid. (the tv ones especially but seeing as we don't have the full info on the ins and outs it's hard to argue). Would it surprise anyone if Doncaster hadn't even asked sky/ESPN to consider what an offer may be for an SPL without Rangers? Wouldn't surprise me one jot. If he doesn't find out, it's easier to peddle the myth that there would be no deal at all, knowing that out of fear a Newco will be ushered back in. If the figures were known and laid out in black and white then the chairmen could make an assessment and vote accordingly. And while perhaps not agreeing with the outcome, we could at least look at the facts and know EXACTLY why. This is clearly not happening just now, as I said before some of the figures which are being taken as fact are simply bullsh!t. And some of them we know enough about to show that.. In the statement from the ArabTrust it was mentioned that the club have said that they will lose in the region of £300,000 of gate/commercial income if there was no Rangers in the league. I would contend that United would GAIN money on gate receipts next year if Rangers were shown the door. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why: Attendances of last 5 SPL Rangers games at Tannadice: 11,100 10,003 11,626 10,156 9,464 Attendances of last 5 SPL Dundee FC games at Tannadice: 10,457 12,292 9,571 11,118 12,703 Apologies for any typing mistakes which may be here, but I'm away from the comp and the touch screen drives me round the bend!

At most clubs Season Ticket sales would only be affected POSITIVELY if they arte told to GTF. Celtic being a probable exception. I smell sh!te.

Distances from Celtic Park: Shawfield - 1.6m Cathkin Park - 3.3m Hampden - 3.6m Firhill - 4.3m Ibrox - 4.6m I'm not sure in what world that Rangers were ever your "closest neighbours". Seems fairly obvious that if how close they are had anything to do with your rivalry that Celtic's biggest rivals should always have been Clyde. Or perhaps Third Lanark or Queens Park? Even Thistle should have been considered before Rangers. Is it possibly less to do with distance and more to do with the fact that Rangers were the only club willing to take the opposite side of some archaic, poisonous divide? That they were willing to get in bed with Celtic to exploit sectarian bigotry in the city which should have died out years ago?

So, what you're saying is noone likes you, you don't care. Interesting...

There is no information as the TV companies will be keeping cards close to their chest. Talk of losing £1 million is nonsense, there will be a tv deal unless Doncaster f*cks up beyond anything I can imagine. Yes it may be lower, but given that the diddy clubs will then be able to rejig the Prize money output then it will only be Celtic getting the shaft. I have done a bit more analysis into the figures I posted earlier in the thread, and assuming that the SPL (without Rangers) can vote through a linear split of TV money, then going by the assumptions I've read (ie. this year we are on £12M a year payout and next year we were scheduled to move to a £16M a season deal). Then for the majority of the league to break even on what they achieved last season (assuming a similar league placing): The SPL TV Deal could Drop to 60.075% of that publicised and clubs would lose NO money (out-with 1st place and to a very much smaller degree 3rd) Figures available to anyone who cares. Bottom line, slashing the TV deal for a Rangerless SPL would pretty much only affect Celtic. I can only assume, going by the noises coming from most clubs that they just haven't done the numbers. EDIT: for dodgy spelling

Don't be daft, just imagine how different this whole situation would have been if Rangers had had a good "footballing man" on the board this whole time. Perhaps someone who'd played and managed in the game, a club legend perhaps... He'd have made sure this was sorted out. What we need is more footballing men on boards!

The rules state that only a certain number of games can be shown every season from each ground. Naturally the games they choose to show from the Tattiedome and skull mountain are the old firm games, the first day of the season flag unfurling and end of season title decider's. Ie. all the games that are guaranteed to sell out anyway. Pretty much nothing in between. They are the only two teams that don't lose income due to fans staying in and watching the game on Sky or ESPN. They are the only two that are never shown at home during less than plum ties (you of course wouldn't wan't to show the tv audience that TGFITW are in fact a long way from it) Basically like most things in the SPL, it's not particularly fair on the diddies (though obviously if you listen to the bears recently, or the other mob over the past couple of years, the world is against them!) And me, I'm not bitter at all. EDIT: due to IPads being sh!t

The transfer embargo was a compromise solution. I'm pretty sure I read that the £100,000 fine was the maximum fine which could have been given for the charge and the other suggested sanctions were suspension or expulsion from the sfa. The panel decided that the fine alone was insufficient punishment and suspension/expulsion was too harsh. So they came up with a punishment which was somewhere in between. Also what use is a hefty fine when they've no intension of paying anything anyway, HMRC will already taking a dim view on the goings on at Rangers, paying back other member clubs in full as well as fine's to the SFA would guarantee (if it isn't already) that they would vote against a CVA (Their stance on the Football creditor rule in England is well publicised.) Nothing in that punishment would discourage willful non-payment of PAYE and VAT. Fair play, this is well reasoned and sensible. Maybe you're not all the raging inbred lunatics that the majority seem.

Very true. Can't believe the amount of them I've talked to that are raging about this punishment, it's "Far too harsh a punishment for going into administration!!!" How about you actually find out what your club are being punished for before deciding that it's too harsh. Anybody that has read the charges would find it really hard to say that they've not been let off really lightly here. A ban on signing players for a team that doesn't have any money to sign players. Green must be rubbing his hands at this, no way he would have wanted to hand over the "Warchest" to McCoist, now he can keep the biscuit tin firmly closed and the "WE DESERVE BETTER" brigade will point the finger at the SFA rather than him. Result!

I'm not 100% sure of the overall size of the pot (sponsorship etc. will be added and costs will be deducted). But talking purely in terms of the TV revenue using the formula for allocating prize money the figures will look similar to this: This Season: £12,000,000 overall ...|TEAM.........|..%..|....£.... --------------------------------- 1..|Celtic.......|17.00|2,040,000 2..|Rangers......|15.00|1,800,000 3..|Motherwell...|09.50|1,140,000 4..|Dundee Utd...|08.50|1,020,000 5..|Hearts.......|08.00| 960,000 6..|St Johnstone.|07.50| 900,000 7..|Kilmarnock...|07.00| 840,000 8..|St Mirren....|06.50| 780,000 9..|Aberdeen.....|06.00| 720,000 10.|Inverness CT.|05.50| 660,000 11.|Hibernian....|05.00| 600,000 12.|Dunfermline..|04.50| 540,000 The widely publicised TV Deal (unsigned) for next season is for £16,000,000 a season. So even say Sky take are particularly harsh and offer 50% of this for a Rangerless SPL, given the updated formula in my previous post that could be broken down as so: ... | TEAM......... | ..%.. | .....£.... | - on 2011/12 --------------------------------------------------- 1.. | Celtic....... | 11.73 | 938,271.60 | -1,101,728.40 2.. | Motherwell... | 11.11 | 888,888.89 | -251,111.11 3.. | Dundee Utd... | 10.49 | 839,506.17 | -180,493.83 4.. | Hearts....... | 09.88 | 790,123.46 | -169,876.54 5.. | St Johnstone. | 09.26 | 740,740.74 | -159,259.26 6.. | Kilmarnock... | 08.64 | 691,358.02 | -148,641.98 7.. | St Mirren.... | 08.02 | 641,975.31 | -138,024.69 8.. | Aberdeen..... | 07.41 | 592,592.59 | -127,407.41 9.. | Inverness CT. | 06.79 | 543,209.88 | -116,790.12 10. | Hibernian.... | 06.17 | 493,827.16 | -106,172.84 11. | Dunfermline.. | 05.56 | 444,444.44 | -95,555.56 12. | Ross County.. | 04.94 | 395,061.73 | + a lot (again moving all teams up 1 place and putting SFL 1 winners at the bottom as an example of how the season could have finished without Rangers, I know this may not be accurate!) So even if the TV companies cut their deal for next season IN HALF there's no way that the drop in revenue would come close to bankrupting clubs (the average revenue drop outside of Celtic is £149,000) There are so many myths about how much we need Rangers, I just don't believe any of it

The maths is correct, but the figures are just used as an example. Might put up some more realistic figures in a bit. When I was saying that Celtic would lose the most, this was obviously in real terms, not as a proportion of turnover. You are right that in terms of Celtic's overall income the SPL TV money isn't hugely significant. Peter Lawwell doesn't exactly do his best to endear Celtic to the diddies with some of his comments, and Celtic will vote to keep Rangers in the league if they need to, to prevent the diddies from having too much control.

Nobody knows what Sky would actually offer for a Rangerless SPL, however if this was to come to pass the team which would lose the most money by far would be Celtic. Without their bum chums to back them up, the unfair revenue split in the SPL would be at an end. If you extend the LINEAR increase in money which happens from 4th - 12th in the SPL you could have every team from 4th - 12th getting the EXACT SAME amount of money as they did this year (assuming that everybody finishes 1 place higher than would have been the case with Rangers in the League) with as much as a 19% drop in overall revenue. Using this season as an example, the below figures show what could happen with a 19% drop in overall prize money (I have used £10,000,000 as the baseline. I know this doesn't reflect the real figures but makes the numbers easier! Also assumed each team from 3rd down finishing 1 place higher which I also know would not necessarily be the case but again, good for a comparison) ...|TEAM.........|..%..|...£... ------------------------------- 1..|Celtic.......|17.00|1,700,000 2..|Rangers......|15.00|1,500,000 3..|Motherwell...|09.50|950,000 4..|Dundee Utd...|08.50|850,000 5..|Hearts.......|08.00|800,000 6..|St Johnstone.|07.50|750,000 7..|Kilmarnock...|07.00|700,000 8..|St Mirren....|06.50|650,000 9..|Aberdeen.....|06.00|600,000 10.|Inverness CT.|05.50|550,000 11.|Hibernian....|05.00|500,000 12.|Dunfermline..|04.50|450,000 SFL|Ross County..|2 Jeggies and a Hubba Bubba Total = £10,000,000 ...|TEAM.........|..%..|...£...| +/- -------------------------------------------- 1..|Celtic.......|11.73|950,000| -£750,000 2..|Motherwell...|11.11|900,000| -£50,000 3..|Dundee Utd...|10.49|850,000| No Change 4..|Hearts.......|09.88|800,000| No Change 5..|St Johnstone.|09.26|750,000| No Change 6..|Kilmarnock...|08.64|700,000| No Change 7..|St Mirren....|08.02|650,000| No Change 8..|Aberdeen.....|07.41|600,000| No Change 9..|Inverness CT.|06.79|550,000| No Change 10.|Hibernian....|06.17|500,000| No Change 11.|Dunfermline..|05.56|450,000| No Change 12.|Ross County..|04.94|400,000| +Sh!t Load Total = £8,100,000 *Note these percentages are rounded, the actual would be 12th starting at 4.938271604938271604938271604938 % with inriments of 0.617283950617283950617283950617 % per place. You estimated a 20% drop in tv money which isn't far off this example of 19%. So if 20% was the fall off in TV revenue the vast majority of the SPL would be barely affected. Even if the new tv deal was to be reduced by a greater margin, Celtic would be the team losing the most.

Don't quote me on this as I can't remember the source, but I think I remember reading they were on something like £400 an hour. That could mean their costing Rangers somewhere between a McGregor and a Whitaker each (pre-wage cuts).

For well publicised reasons the accounts aren't available for 2011, but in 2010 the wage bill was £28 Million. They could have cut that in half and still been comfortably the second biggest spenders in the league (Hearts wage bill is around £10M).

You forget though, they aren't a club like any other, they're a national institution