Jay Silverheels

If the SFL statement that McGruther could not guarantee Livingston would be able to fulfill their obligations in the First Division, and that no bond was posted, contrary to SFL requests, is true, then where is the problem in relegating Livingston? The SFL sought two things from Livingston, both of which they could not supply. The SFL had very little option but to relegate Livingston, just as they did with Gretna. Of course, I may be accused of being just another Airdrie profiteer, looking to jump back into the First on the back of Livi's misfortune, but think about this; if we had finished stone bottom, and Clyde had finished above us, it would be Clyde who were in Airdrie's position, and the facts surrounding Livi's breaches of SFL rules would still remain. It could have been any club other than Airdrie in a similar situation, but for some reason, a sizable portion of the Livingston fanbase seems to think that it is Airdrie's fault. Think again. The Livi forums are awash with complaints of the SFL being full of "self preservationists" who have an axe to grind with Livingston. Presumably these "blazers" wish ill upon all things Livingston, but I would argue that this is not the case. Last season, Livingston were in breach of the SFL rules regarding players' wages on several occasions, but they made it through the season unpunished. Yes, they did pay the wages, but they were late. It doesn't alter the fact that they broke the rules last season and got off with it. The Self-Preservation Society at the SFL didn't seem to have a problem with them then, so why should they all of a sudden grab their pitchforks and besiege Castle Amondvale? I don't believe they are pulling an old pals act, I just think they are extremely incompetent. I have read several posts on the Livi message board which conflicted with each other. One position was that "the club is bigger than the owner," while another was that "the SFL were unfairly penalizing the potential new owners of the club. They cannot be held accountable for past mistakes." You cannot have it both ways. Which is it? Is the club bigger than the owner? In that case isn't punishment justified? If they are penalizing the new owners unfairly, then what axe do you believe they have to grind with them? Rightly or wrongly, the SFL are clearly of the position that the club is bigger than the owner. As I have stated continuously throughout this fiasco, the SFL have been incompetent in the extreme. Heads should roll over the whole affair. At the very least, they have known the situation surrounding Livingston for months, and should have had Plans A, B, and C in place to deal with all eventualities. These are not stupid men, so they should have known what was around the corner. Everyone else seemed to, after all. The have lost the confidence of the paying customer, and that is unforgivable. The whole lot of them should stand down at the earliest opportunity.

Couldn't you two who have been banned from Livi Lions appeal and keep posting during the appeal process? Maybe you should issue a joint statement on here that you intend to turn up at Livi Lions with the intention of posting, since you're not officially banned until the appeals process has been completed. Even though you agreed to abide by their rules when you joined their site, any punishment they deem fit to dish out to you should automatically be discounted, since you never agreed that you would abide by their decisions in the first place. Pending appeal, of course. Hold on a second....

Not all of your fans are maching to that tune, PLL, you should know that from the posts on your boards lately. Some still believe that nothing short of Almondvale falling into the bowels of the earth should stop them from playing First Division football next season.

Too old for that now. My sheets don't fit me any more...

Not often I agree with you EdinburghLivi, but I agree with you tonight! PLL, I know it's not the fault of the Livi supporters, and that the decision has been made by the board.

I hear what you're saying, LLD, but come on. Is it not easier to just get heads down and arses up and get on with it pending an appeal that to throw a tantrum and refuse to play? If Livi win their appeal, then they could seek recompense for playing an unnecessary fixture through the courts. If their appeal is successful, then surely their compensation claim is a certainty? I can't see any reasonable judge/arbiter disagreeing. If their appeal is unsuccessful, then they will have begun their season, no harm done. Unless they plan to take this all the way to the European Court of Human Rights...

So it seems that McDougall has thrown his toys out of the pram. "It's our way or no way at all." "Give us what we want or we'll hold our breath til our faces turn blue." McDougall is acting no better than the man he replaced. Are Livi going to turn up at Dingwall tomorrow? That should be interesting. Two teams brawling for the right to use the away dressing room with Ross County players standing sniggering on the sidelines. It appears that as far as the new Livi consortium are concerned, if you do not like a rule or a decision by the governing body, then it is your perogative to just ignore it and carry on regardless. Neither the SFL nor Livingston are going to come out of this escapade smelling like roses. I hope for everyone's sake that this whole sorry affair is brought to a conclusion - one way or another - as quickly as possible. The games should have went ahead as mandated by the SFL today pending the appeal. The decision was taken by the SFL to allow the games to go ahead. Now the Livi board are refusing to follow the rules of the governing body. A very strange decision indeed.

Should have made a reality show of this saga. Then again, it's so contrived people would have thought it was scripted.

Further info from the Livi boards suggest that this is an SFL sanctioned postponement. The players not being paid and all that. The statement on the Livi Website says that the consortium are closer to buying the team. If this is the case, why don't they pay the players' wages and let the fixtures go ahead as planned? This whole escapade gets stranger and stranger...

According to someone on the Livi Lions boards, the CONsortium have decided not to play tomorrow and are going to appeal the Livi penalty. Take that as you will. If that's the case, I really can't see what they will gain by refusing to play.

A consortium of chancers

To be fair to Larry, I think his crankiness was due to sand in his vagina.

Larry the Lyin' more like... "What a scene today in the meeting eh? The Airdrie chairman chairing the meeting that will see his club get promoted, Black, red faced and passionate, rallying the old gaurd. What a conspiracy of wanks!" Seems a lack of respect for another club right there... Everything was just dandy in Liviland last week when it seemed you would escape with a slap on the wrists. Now, when the punishment is more severe than originally anticipated, your show your true colours. You never learn, though, do you? On July 13 you were still looking for a sugar daddy to bail your team out. "I've got my ticket and I won't think it was right to do ANYTHING to get rid of AM if we disappear without a trace. If we have a white knight or some other unlikely turn of fortunes, I'll be the first to say thanks in my own shallow way" (July 13, 5:53pm). Even as late as July 22 you were holding out hope that a savior would come in, spunking cash into the Livi coffers. "everyone's heads are still up their own *****, no change I'm afraid. Just keep holding on for the ultimate solution, our white knight will arrive in timely fashion to snatch the jaws of victory from the snatch of defeat, or something.... " (July 22, 6:52pm). This is what got you into this mess in the first place. And the second place. And the third...

I must say I'm surprised by the SFL's decision. I've long railed against them for being spineless imbeciles, but this decision took me completely off guard. Looks like they grew a backbone. Either that, or they had serious issues with the Business Plan. I quoted SFL rule 76.2 earlier on the boards, thinking that was the rule that they were in contravention of. I didn't expect the SFL to enforce it to the extreme, however, although it was within their powers to do as they saw fit. I haveserious reservations regarding Airdrie's re-promotion to the First. Black has built a team that he thought would be competing in the Second Division, and now, with three days until the start of the season, he has to radically rethink his tactics. I hope more funds are made available for him to pick up a few players worthy of playing in the First. I hope this isn't the end for Livi, but a new, fresh beginning, free from all the chancers and idiots who have mismanaged them over the course of their existence. Good luck to them. On a side note, I see that financial problems are not exclusive property of Scottish clubs. Argentina has suspended the start of their season, and of course, there were fears over the sustainability of EPL clubs' debts recently, highlighted by UEFA's David Taylor. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8185095.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/7659077.stm

Not that easy, since he is not the one that has the final say on the matter. Black's still a duffer, though, and it doesn't matter which division he's in as he can't motivate nor manage a team.

It seems LLD likes to make unsubstantiated allegations. Dunfermline are a bunch of chancers and Jim Ballantyne circumvented the SFL rules and conventions... If you make these allegations, can you at least back them up? I'll ask again for the benefit of those without your insight LLD; which rules and conventions did Jim Ballantyne circumvent, and which creditors did Dunfermline stiff?

I am not arguing that Massone was batshit crazy, but can you not see that by signing players which he could not afford to pay, thereby incurring huge debts, Livingston F.C. benefitted by retaining their place in the First Division? If Livingston had lived within its means, they would have been forced to sign players on a lower pay scale. This would possibly have meant lower-calibre players than those that took the field last season. Would they have survived the drop? I guess we'll never know. On another note, if Airdrie had not hit something of a purple patch, we may have been relegated automatically, and then it would have been Clyde in the paper today bemoaning the fact that Livi were given preferential treatment. Any team other than Airdrie, those damn cheaty cheaters, and the comments would have been treated with a little credibility. As it is, it's Airdrie, and they're just a bunch of cheats, so their opinions don't count. So, I'll ask again, which rules and conventions did Jim Ballantyne circumvent?

"76.2 The Management Committee shall also have full power to deal with as it thinks fit, including power to deduct championship points before or during a season and/or to impose a player registration embargo on any club guilty of conduct contrary to the interests of the League and its member clubs or any registered player or former registered player, or potentially likely to prejudice the orderly progress of the League Championship and/or the League Challenge Cup competition in any season. Such conduct, for the avoidance of doubt, may include a club in or going into Administration, Liquidation, Receivership, Sequestration or any other insolvency procedure by whatever means or having a Judicial Factor appointed to its undertaking. For the further avoidance of doubt, a club in or going into any such procedure will remain responsible for the purposes of this Rule for the conduct of its undertaking by any Administrator, Liquidator, Receiver, Trustee in Sequestration, Judicial Factor or other such officer appointed to it." "Livingston FC Ltd is hopelessly insolvent, without any discernible cash flow, and in need of an immediate cash injection," McGruther said"

I guess both you and Captain Sensible are in agreement then - Airdrie and Livingston are cheats. Just as a matter of interest, which rules and conventions (plural in both instances) did Ballantyne circumvent? 21.7? 51B? 70? If I recall correctly, Clydebank were in financial straits, and they were offered up to the highest bidder, lock, stock, and league membership.

I take it by your post that even when Airdrie supporters bring up a legitimate point, it should automatically be discounted because their team are cheats. Wonderful powers of reasoning. I'm glad you're not a judge. The fans of most clubs seem to be in agreement here; the whole sordid affair was badly mismanaged by the SFL. It's not Livingston supporters that people are complaining about, it's the handling of the fiasco by the administrator/Rankine/McDougall/SFL. Basically, the Livi Business Plan revolves around staying in the First Division this season. Rankine and the administrator made that clear. It's that or they'll take their ball and go home, leaving the SFL with a 9-team division days away from the start of the season. What a PR fiasco that would be. I dread to think what would happen to Airdrie if they were promoted this late in the day. We simply do not have the team to be anything other than the whipping boys of the First Division. It would be unfair on Airdrie and Cowdenbeath both if they were promoted at this stage. Probably promoted to come back down again. Most Airdrie supporters don't want that. But sure, ignore the logic and the facts of the situation, and rant and rave about cheating Airdrie all you want. Discount what Airdrie fans have to say because they're nothing but cheats. Ignore the points they raise. Laugh when Airdrie fans point out that Airdrieonians were not afforded such preferential treatment when they were on the verge of extinction. Carry on. It doesn't stop us having an opinion, and it doesn't stop the majority of posters on here understanding and agreeing with the points we make. Nor us with them.

I thik you'll find that Kenny Black is a clueless tosspot who would take any chance of First Division football. He can't do it on merit, and when the opportunity to is handed to him on a silver platter, he can't keep a team there. Who better for the tabloids to ask for a quote? In a nutshell, nothing's been taken away from Airdrie. Black wants something for nothing, since he's used to getting promotion that way, and not by putting a decent team together.

Going by the custard-pie-in-the-balls antics of the SFL so far this Summer, they'd hold an EGM to change more rules I'd imagine...

I doubt this is true, but I sincerely hope we don't go up. We've prepared for live in the Second, and throwing us up into the First would make this a long, hard season. No doubt, with our current team and management, we'd only end up relegated anyway. The whole thing has been mismanaged horribly. There's no doubt that Livi should face sanctions, but it's too late in the day for it to mean reshuffling the leagues. Perhaps an automatic relegation at the end of this season would have been better, coupled with a transfer embargo (there's no point fining them), given that there is so little time for Airdrie United to reshuffle and prep for survival in the First. If it is the case, the SFL have shown themselves up to be incompetent imbeciles once again.

Perhaps now that the SFL's rulebook has been shown to be a complete joke, and can be altered/amended/ignored when it suits the body which is supposed to enforce the rules that THEY put in place, there will be a backlash by disgruntled clubs. Perhaps the SPL 2 idea will be raised once again. Once again, I quote from the Guardian article regarding Airdrieonians' ejection from the SFL: "But the chairmen decided that to allow Airdrie United to emerge from the blackened ashes of Airdrieonians would be setting a dangerous precedent that might see cash-strapped football clubs disappear only to reappear under a different guise. Donald said: "I think the potential precedent that may have been set may have been a major factor. "There was certainly concern about that and I think it was certainly one element that went towards it."" So basically, the SFL are now proposing the very same thing that they used to reject the Airdrieonians bid to stay in the SFL. Indeed, they are proposing rule changes to make it easier. It just goes to show that the SFL is a paper tiger, run by unbelievably unscrupulous and clueless fuckwits. I will add that I hoped that Livi would survive, but there should have been a series of hard and fast rules in place - rules which applied to ALL member clubs. The fact that the SFL let this rumble on to this late in the day and then attempted to save face by fucking over the resto of the SFL members speaks volumes for their integrity.

It has become apparent that football clubs are not responsible for their actions, and can survive and prosper by any means necessary, fair or foul. Goes with the whole lefty "victim" mentality. Livivingston F.C. was abused as a child, and its refusal to follow rules is a direct result of this earlier abuse. It can't be held responsible for its actions because it has a lot of hurt and rage built up inside. The SFL are just the bearded social worker with leather patches on his sleeves helping the emotionally-hurt Livingston through the healing process.