GirondistNYC
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Posts posted by GirondistNYC
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1340843473[/url]' post='6381283']
OBITUARIES.....
Rangers Football Club (140) is survived by it's brother Celtic.
Estranged for many years, and not biologically related 0 -
1340822085[/url]' post='6379854']
No they sold out last year. I know OTPP very well and they are an ultra conservative investor. No way would they be involved in this circus.
Yup. Especially after the Quebec funds had some issues with CDO Stuff circa 2008. May be Canadians in the mix, but not them as a headline investor.
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1340811177[/url]' post='6379247']
Mike Farrell @mikefstv According to title deeds, the floating charge held by Craig Whyte over Murray Park is still valid http://bit.ly/NNblxX
May not mean much if true. Rough summary based on my readings the last couple of months:
1) the charge secures funds advanced to retire the Lloyd's debt
2) Whyte didn't advance consideration to retire the Lloyd's debt, instead using Ticketus funds
3) Ticketus didn't take security through the charge, instead going with a securitization of tickets model, which in theory gave them an even better position as creditor
4) according to the COS, the Ticketus trust structure was not valid and they couldn't put,chase the tickets, leaving them as ordinary creditors under Scottish law, who were thrown into the pot alongside everyone else at liquidation
5) The charge thus attaches and remains, but in a value of zero, the amount Whyte advanced. Ticketus can't step into his shoes because they went the securitization route and engaged lawyers who didn't know the difference between Scottish and English law.
I'm surprised somebody hasn't moved to clear the charge formally but Ticketus has been way too quiet or me to think its likely they'll try and enforce the charge directly or via Whyte's guaranty. The time for them to scream bloody murder was at the CVA stage, where they were treated by everyone as an ordinary unsecured creditor. Happy if one of the UK practioners on here can demonstrate the above is off base as the emergence of Whyte or Ticketus right now would really put a couple of nails in the coffin.
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1340805630[/url]' post='6378948']
With Fraser Fuckwit stalling on a new contract
SHOULD CELTIC APPROACH MCGREGOR?
Great questions to which I earnestly hope the answer is no #36. He's not going to come cheap, and we really shouldn't be splashing that much in wages and signing on fees on a keeper now.
But my God, the Bears reaction if we did....
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1340795553[/url]' post='6378423']
Nick Griffin ffs
if that was my club he was backing I think that would be my moment of clarity "wait...are we the baddies?""Ally.... Have you ever noticed that we have SKULLS on our caps"..,,
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"We are Rangers/Super Rangers/No-one likes us/And it appears we may have failed to anticipate some of the long-term ramifications of this"
From Chris Brookmyre's twitter
(edit) sorry, missed this was posted earlier. Sorry Heartspark
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1340735252[/url]' post='6376686']
Getting back to the Greek theme, I'm beginning to think their Gods might actually be having an influence. It would take a supernatural power to bring us the delightful cast of Craig Whyte, Duff and Phelps, Dark Mingwall, Ticketus(probably Roman, but still) and Cockwomble etc.. And can it be a coincidence that Zeus now owns Ibrox? My favourite for the particular God who is looking after the good folk of Pie and Bovril is Athena, the Goddess of wisdom, warfare, battle strategy, heroic endeavour, handicrafts and reason.
Here's her picture for us to offer thanks to:
Only one supernatural female figure from Greek myth is involved here: Nemesis, the fate who punished mortal hubris. Perfect fit, really.
(apologies if posted earlier, still catching up)
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1340707194[/url]' post='6375192']
I know that this thread is full of analogies but here is another one. The Rangers situation is a bit like a pub bouncer turning people away at the door. The attitude is 'we don't want your type in here'. So far they have been turned away from the SPL door and there is a strong threat that they are going to get rejected from the First Division door. The question is. What are the chances of them getting turned away from the Third Division?
Apologies if this has been posted earlier, but under this analogy The Rangers are Derek Riordan.
Rangers = Derek Riordan, cost of Rangers < cost of Aidan McGeady
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1340663092[/url]' post='6374210']
IMO this thread needs to more discussion of classical Athenian tragedy and it's parallels to the current situation at the big house.
Nah. Aristotle defined the goal of tragedy as eliciting "pity and fear" in the audience. This spectacle has notably failed to elicit much fear and utterly failed to elicit any pity.
This is more Chekov, showing the failure of the once powerful noble class to adopt to a changed world in which the old certainty of serfdom was no more and the inability of people to confront unpleasant reality.
Does Murray Park have a cherry orchard?
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1340658341[/url]' post='6373874']
I believe Green knows exactly what he is doing. He's managed to buy Ibrox, the car park, and Murray Park for £5.5m. He's driven the players out, the team will possibly not have a league to play in, and the supporters won't buy season tickets. The final piece of the endgame will be when he padlocks the gates and sells the land to developers.
I generally tend to favour cock-up rather than conspiracy as a general explanation for most things, and posted quite a bit about how the valuation for Ibrox and MP embedded in Greens bid wasn't as crazy as it seemed to some. And given the current economc climate and cost of carrying a 5.5 million investment I still don't see a clear way for this to be other than insanely risky as a pure real estate asset stripping play.
That being said, Greens' actions since the NewCo have been very, very strange indeed. The whole debacle with the season ticket debits and the uncertainty created about renewals seems insane. That was the largest short term cash flow source and potentially represents a significant chunk of cash. They should have been hammering the logistics out long before the CVA was rejected and had everything worked out so they could make a huge push for ticket sales while the bears were in full defiance mode and before reality set in. Basically sell the books with full disclosure they couldn't guarantee which league they'd be in but would could guarantee the money would be clearly Sevcos. Most probably wouldn't renew under tose conditions but surely some would. They didn't seem to try. If they wanted to be putting a team on the pitch wherever they end up that seems odd.
The whole TUPE thing is also bizarre as even the smarter Rangers supporters seem to agree that the argument that it's breach of contract is barmy. Trying to emotionally blackmail players behind the scenes makes some sense, even it's probably doomed to failure. Publicly calling for a gesture of loyalty and getting the fans to exert pressure might, if done in a vaguely subtle way, be worth a shot as if you generate one cut price transfer fee or retain a single extra player you want and can afford its better than nothing. But coming out with all guns blazing threatening litigation and unleashing the Uruk-Hai based on facially implausible legal argument seems insane. I would imagine some players who might have considered staying for a nanosecond had their mind made up by these kind of tactics, and it doesnt seem like a good way to maintain morale for the players, if any, who stay.
The TUPE thing might make sense as a way to dump the squad and associated costs while directing the fans anger elsewhere, but in that case getting season tickets sorted should be even more critical. A brand new squad will, however cut- price it may be, still require funds.
Either Green is very badly advised or....well, something else.
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You didn't read the very, very small print tucked away on the back of the page? No votes only count if a) the terminus points of the x touch the sides of the box and b) are made using violet ink.
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If after what certainly appears to be a reaction to overwhelming grass roots campaign by supporters of the relevant teams the chairman of five clubs have taken a brave and principled stance to go on record against NewCo, and assuming that regardless of what their chairmen actually do the Motherwell and Killie supporters vote as expected against, I will be very very angry if Celtic supporters ever utter phrases like "h**s without busfare" or "diet-h**ns" collectively rather than in individual cases ever again.
I think Celtic's silence to date can be justified on a number of grounds, but the fact remains we stayed on the sidelines more or less and enough other clubs stuck their neck out. Celtic supporters shouldn't forget this in the years to come.
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1339594595[/url]' post='6331162']
Rangers in their current state are worth less than a McGeady, being as they are about 15 to 20 McGeadies in debt. But not really a fair comparison is it.
Agreed its not a fair comparison, but to nitpick its not the debt anymore - HMRC have basically confirmed the debt won't follow the asset sale so barring Ticketus coming up with a brilliant and facially implausible to me argument involving the floating charge being valid n their hands or the ticket sale being valid despite the judges earlier statements the assets don't come with any debts.
Real problem is TUPE making them liable for the contracts of all the players who can't get a better one and losing all the players on a free who can plus potential SFA penalties transferring over plus SPL penalties imposed as a condition of transfer / getting kicked out of SPL plus second contract stuff football penalties attaching plus damage to the brand going forward. All of which are unknown and severely depress the price.
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1339588671[/url]' post='6330854']
I have not read every post since yesterday, so apologies if I'm covering old ground.
I do not understand why Green&Co are getting the business for 5.5M.
I would have thought that BDO should take over and flog all the assets for as much as they can get.
Surely more than 5.5M?
What happened to the idea that the administrators first duty was to the creditors?
Still something not right here.
The valuation seems low from the outside but it's probably capable of bing justified. First, the valuations on Rangers' books for Ibrox etc. are irrelevant - they aren't required to value them at liquidation auction prices and you would expect that to much lower. Second, The real assets are restricted in various ways a) Ibrox has a listed facade and some talk of enviromental issues, b) Murray Park is limited to sporting use by planning. Third, the real assets are in a grim area and things have changed since the financial crisis as far as funding for real estate speculation. Fourth, football assets are strange -- Ibrox is of great value as a sporting venue but with Glasgow filled with decent stadia tenants are scarce and it's not a particularly good venue for concerts, etc. The intellectual property is essentially worthless unless Rangers are playing as I doubt Rangers candy bars or RFC hip-hop apparel would sell. Fifth, despite the manifest failure of the Bears boycott threats anybody buying a chunk of Rangers as part of a transaction that killed the club could expect some backlash from the fans.
The bottom line (pardon the phrase) is that Rangers have been in the shop window for years, in administration since February and in potential liquidation mode for at least a month. If someone really thought Ibrox would make a good place for a Tesco or thought a Highbury style flat conversion would work they would have shown their hand by now. If Glasgow Warriors wanted to gamble on a ground share they would have made that clear by now. And despite all the second guessing of H&D most people would agree that they tried (perhaps to a fault) to identify going concern bidders and Green was the best they found. The market has had a pretty good chance to value Rangers and Rangers are, in the eyes of the market, worth substantially less than Aidan McGeady.
Given the running costs for Rangers assets and extending the time to find potential buyers I'm not sure HMRC, Ticketus etc. would want to do so even if they had the option.
I wouldn't rule out the liquidator looking over the independent valuations H&D got and maybe a bidder will appear for something like iMurray Park or a fortified wine maker will bid for the name and crest to throw a spanner in the works, but I'm not sure this is as shady as it may appear on first glance. Rangers are just objectively worth less than Aidan McGeady (God I love pointing that out)
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1339515250[/url]' post='6327545']
And they'll have running costs comparable to the other clubs.... Eh, naw. As they'll have to operate on a cash-up-front basis with everyone from the taxman to the printers, with NO-ONE willing to extend credit to a business with their record, they could well be fucked before Christmas.
Merchandise - sold by (S)DM to fill a wee cashflow gap.
.....
Facilities - which need maintaining/repairing. And with the lines of credit cut and crowds droppping, how much is going to be available for ANY players, let alone the 40+ they've STILL got on the books after 4 months of this farce?
These are good points, particularly facilities upkeep. Darlington was essentially destroyed by the upkeep costs of Reynolds white elephant. I can't see Rangers attendances sinking to anything like under 10,000, let alone what Darlington drew, but on the other hand that stadium was brand new and smaller than Ibrox. Murray park also has its own running costs.
I have no idea what happens to Rangers merchandise deal in a NewCo scenario but it seems unlikely to me that Rangers will be in a position to rebuild a network of wholly owned club shops so keeping some sort of arrangement with JBL may make commercial sense for them. It would seem to me merchandise income will either be split with a current or new distribution partner or heavily eaten away by new infrastructure costs.
It seems to me the whole thing will hinge on Bears showing up both at Ibrox and when Green does a share scheme.
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1339511099[/url]' post='6327238']
the ones that have been most recently resurfaced?
Yes, I know, sorry etc.
That's terrible, etc. For shame Sir, etc.
But now that you mention it Ibrox is currently available cheap, has planning restrictions and environmental issues but has loads of parking.
It would make an excellent replacement for Dale Farm.... Green may yet be gazzumped.
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1339510354[/url]' post='6327172']
Won't happen today though. They are too busy fighting amongst themselves as to which is the best bridge to jump from.
Which bridges are the Tar***r bridges?
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1339504679[/url]' post='6326730']
why no jim white ssn
Because he's currently in Poland for the Daily Telegraph, who amazingly have given him the job of reporting on the Irish fans. The results have been predictably cliche ridden with an overtone of nasty.
Been busy, but as thy say over here Yippy-Kay-Aye. Expected but pleasing. If you wanted to look for a tiny dark cloud amongst all this silver, however, based on their statement HMRC may be interested more in doing some forensic digging on past conduct than a maximal approach of challenging the valuations for the assets embodied in Greens bid.
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1338586700[/url]' post='6295291']
1. Greens money is a loan to be paid with interest - ie, his bid for all assets is actually 200,000.
2. Immediate closure and redundancies reduces running costs to next to nothing.
Are we really saying that the putting the entire assets of Ranger up for open sale will not realise more than 200k?
From a creditors perspective, they don't care whether Greens money is a loan or not. It's money - not alot, but money.
Most of the costs which get deducted from the CVA pot would also get deducted from the proceeds of an asset sale as I understand it, and the asset sale itself would cost still more, so I'm not sure £200K is the threshold.
I don't know enough about the Glasgow property market to say £5.5 mil is something worth a punt on to investors with money and a strong stomach, but I don't think we can be sure an auction process would garner more after extra fees.
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1338585916[/url]' post='6295253']
Tyskie tonight (bargain at Tesco just now).
[shakes head] Zywiec. Always choose Zywiec. Piwo = Zywiec.
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1338582449[/url]' post='6295095']
I think thats been covered. Its coming out of the 5.5 million that was in the CVA pot. So the 5.5 million is reduced by
4.6 million - being PAYE for the period Feb to May due to HMRC that should have been treated as costs of administration but which D&P false portayed in the CVA
3 million - being running costs over the summer
I'm unclear whether there will be an additional few million due for PAYE during the summer or whether thats included in the 3 million running costs but essentially, whether its CVA, liquidation or newco the pot for creditors is actually a big fat ZERO.
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to my how Green has first refusal of the assets for a paulty 5.5 million. Is there a logical explanation - or have D&P just openly conned the creditors?
Well, the 5.5 million is in a NewCo scenario so as I understand it the players are free agents and worthless.
As for the rest, D&P will have third party valuations to give Credence to the numbers. And those aren't As crazy as they initially look.
Everyone agrees that the book value of Murray Park and Ibrox are fiction. Murray Park has planning restrictions and logical buyers for a facility like that are limited - would be a great pickup for the tennis federation, a post London Olympic training center or even council sports facilities at this price but I can't see a public or semi-public body risking the wrath of the Bears. Perhaps the scientologists want a sports complex? Ibrox has a listed facade and is not, perhaps, in the most attractive patch of Glasgow. It costs alot to run and may not be perfectly maintained. As it is, its an outright liability without a sports tenant and in a city with three mega stadiums only Glasgow Rugby Union leaps to mind, and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't want it. This is 2012, not 2007.
The intangibles - history, logos and other IP, trophies etc. are pretty much worthless unless you have happy Orcs follow following said intangibles and paying good money to buy the brand. A private equity house cant buy the rights to the name and crest and expect to make value added cash with an expansion team in the MLS or A league. Nobody buys Third Lanark tops. The history is worth whatever it's worth as scrap silver without a team.
It's infuriating, but the breakup value on the open market may actually be that low. That bing said, the valuation cn be challenged under some circumstances and it's conceivable others buyers might be tempted. Someone with some money and a lot of guts might buy Ibrox and charge rent to Govan 1690, somebody may want to set up Andy Murray Park Tennis and Mad Vlad might put in a last minute bid to drag the contents of the trophy room off to the Baltics.
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1338581268[/url]' post='6295047']
The funny thing is Craig Whyte is hated by Rangers but at least he spent a quid on them, and Green is getting a fair few questions of intent having spent £2 on them.
Who was the last guy to actually spend any decent cash on Rangers, The so called "institution"?
I spent more money today on rolls than Murray and Whyte spent on Rangers.
Well, just because money is borrowed doesn't mean it came fom nowhere. So if Murray himself didn't put any money in, then it was HBOS directly or indirectly through MiH writing off intercompany loans. And given what happened to MiH and HBOS, and what happened to Lloyd's when it took over, arguably the taxpayer put some in in exchange for Lloyd's exposure to MiH. Perhaps not a good deal in retrospect...
To be fair, ENIC lost a bunch and the poor loyal debenture holders put cash in as well. And MiHs history has yet to be fully explored.
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Bela Lugoskis Dead - Bauhaus
The Body of A Bluenose - The Pogues
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On the HMRC front, lengthy article on David Hartnett the former permanent secretary in the FT. Most useful in understanding why the cry "we're a victim, Vodaphone and Goldman got away with it" from Bears doesn't really apply anymore and where that approach came from. Link unfortunately behind a registration wall.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f5b698c0-aa8f-11e1-899d-00144feabdc0.html
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if that was my club he was backing I think that would be my moment of clarity 
Big Rangers Administration/Liquidation Thread - All chat here!
in Celtic v Rangers, Rangers v Celtic
Posted
In an ideal world, Celtic would have come out with a strong statement by now. However, all the people inferring from recent silence that they are somehow pro Rangers are being rather unfair IMO. There are some good reasons for Celtic to, having stated they didn't need Rangers and missed copious opportunities to actively aid our so called twin, stay mum:
1) even with the silent approach, the Uruk-Hai are convinced Lawwell and Celtic are behind their every setback. A strong statement, especially early on, would have pumped up the level of hatred to as yet undreamed of levels. It could be argued that the level of vitriol is so high now nothing could make it worse, but I'm not so sure. And it wouldn't be a good thing on the ground.
2) this forum has exhaustively documented the OF bias of the mainstream media. If Celtic had led the charge for a no vote what o you think would have happened? Cue headlines about "OF War - Celtic boss moves to kill rival". Worse, instead of "Diddy Club X vows to vote no, cites sporting integrity and fan pressure" the headlines would be "Diddy Club X joins Celtic crusade to destroy Rangers". The whole media debate would have become about the Old Firm again.
3) Related to (2) the "politics" of the situation might have changed radically if Celtic made a firm statement. There are lots of people in Scotland who don't follow this like we do. If at any point the narrative shifted from that of a grass roots uprising of fans of all clubs in the SPL against Rangers and broad disgust at their conduct to one where Celtic was trying to minimize competition I think lots of people from the casual, non-forum reading and a couple maches a year diddy supporter, to supporters (and chairman) of lower league teams to politicians to (in the now unlikely event they get involved) FIFA/UEFA would have viewed the whole thing perhaps more sympathetic to Rangers or just written it off as OF squabbling. The fact Celtics statement wouldn't have changed the attitudes of the other clubs fans would be irrelevant as the media would be able to twist it quite easily into a Celtic bloc versus Rangers.
4) on a less sympathetic but quite legitimate note, Celtics sponsors will presumably not be happy if the OF goes away for a year or more. That's not a crisis in all probability but being seen to actively participate, let alone lead, the drive too bring this about would not make them happy, particularly in light of point (1).
I don't suppose (4) will draw much sympathy here given the commercial risks other clubs are running, and it shouldn't. A version of (1) is obviously going to be felt by everyone now but I would argue that Celtic can legitimately take this into account.
(2) and (3), however, seem to me excellent reasons for Celtic to keep quiet, perhaps even at this late date. There is a slight possibility the strength of the undeniably impressive grass roots campaign against Sevco would have been diluted if Celtic spoke up. There is an absolute certainty that perceptions outside the hard core football supporters would have been poisoned by media spin if Celtic had acted and this would have reduced the overall effectiveness of said grassroots campaign.
I'm not privy to the Celtic powers that be's thinking, I'm just pointing out there are some decent justifications for it that don't involve restoring the ancien regime.