Bazil85
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Posts posted by Bazil85
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22 hours ago, wastecoatwilly said:
The welsh and the N Irish became more of a threat than the colt teams,the fact that the proposal is only pilot scheme and the dearth of young talent in Scotland needs to be addressed between the ages 17-21.When you see the Scotland under 17's beat Spain under 17's 2-1 it gives a bit of hope,thinking at that age we are decent but when we get to 17-21 it falls apart WHY?
They didn't become more of a threat I'd say, the Colts were never more of a threat than those teams.
Something does have to be done to sort out the 17-21 year old problem but we need to end up with better players than we already have, not just more of the same or worse. Playing a 20 year old against part-time footballers that train twice a week will not make better Scottish players. That's very clear.
Clubs should be doing more to develop these players and rules should be introduced to support these players. Every club in Scotland forced to start two/three home grown players under the age of 21 and an additional three/ five allowed to be over that age would be my pick.
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14 hours ago, Jack Burton said:
We played our own under 20 side against Partick Thistle Colts in the Challenge Cup in front of our lowest crowd for that season. I think that tells you all you need to know.
I've yet to meet any Clyde fan in favour of the proposal either. I honestly do not know why people keep responding to him on this thread.I think when he says 'Clyde fans' he means 'Celtic fans but they have a soft spot for Clyde as well.' hate when The Glasgow lover fans from Paisley say that about St Mirren.
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16 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:
Their used to be rules about a certain number of youth players on the bench, but it was horrendous. You'd have six youngsters consigned to sitting on the bench every single week never getting any football.
We've had two youngsters sit on the bench and solely play youth football with youth team mates, those two have gone absolutely nowhere and soon left us.
We've had two youngsters have numerous loans throughout the lower leagues, playing beside senior players, ones now our starting CH and the other earned us £1m.
You get players need to play senior football with senior players, folk who can talk them through the game and motivate them after any mistake. Colt teams is a daft idea because you're removing the most vital part of a players development, a mentor.
yeah agree with that, what I would propose is all teams having a minimum number of homegrown youngsters on the park at any one time not the bench. If all teams were made to do that then it takes away the disadvantage. Will never happen though because Celtic competing in Europe is king on the list of SPFL priorities.
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1 hour ago, wastecoatwilly said:
You are voicing your concern on the proposal not on when the league 2 starts with colt teams, the rules are in place before a ball is kicked.
If the immunity of the colts is the problem with the proposal then take it out.It's one of many many many problems. Most of which are deal breakers for me as below:
- There is no clear benefit to other teams or Scottish international quality youth development. It clearly benefits only two teams
- Even if the Colts could get promoted/ relegated it still means lower competitions become development leagues
- the financial benefits offered are bribes for perceived lower crowd volumes (means they know fans aren't interested
- Even with the financial benefits there's no guarantees after two years
- It's elitist with only two clubs involved
- It'll take quality young players from other clubs
The biggest deal breaker is the main impacted fan bases, (League 2 fans) are not for it. It's been shown on polls, club communication, surveys, social media, forums everywhere. There is no dubiety about it, they don't want this.
Even if personally I thought it would be good for Scottish football, my own team or anyone else, I'm of the opinion their views should be paramount. Above all else football is a game, it's their for the enjoyment of all not to further the elite. An impression that's been lost in recent years.
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1 hour ago, A Believer said:
No. Honestly. On a forum entitled Scottish League 2 general chatter, I'd be hoping to hear from people who have Scottish League 2 at heart.
Your points are well made; just not relevant to the betterment of SPFL2.
As I said, do please make a point that might improve youth development, or general development of my league.
It's not complex. Truly, any such suggestions welcome ON AN SPFL2 FORUM.The page is in regards to OF Colts in league two. Is my disdain for the idea not relevant because I don't support a L2 side? Just asking.
Believe it or not one of my main reasons for being against this proposal is I don't think it's fair on fans of clubs at that level. the majority of them are against it so I feel they should be listened to.
In regards to improving youth development, I would like to see this flipped on its head. Campaigns to force top flight clubs to play more youngsters. Rules in place that mean minimal numbers of homegrown players in the starting 11. that in place for me would have a much bigger impact.
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7 minutes ago, GordonD said:
Future Scotland (I mean Irish) internationals right there.
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46 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said:
I think killie would be happy with that set up,why are you deflecting away from this proposal with this hypothetical mince?
Right now the Colt idea in L2 is hypothetical mince. Another unsubstantiated claim of teams supporting Colt teams as well
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50 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said:
As a say before you put a 100 fans in a room and you won't get them to agree,how can you devalue the league when every teams knows the rules before the league starts?
By having two teams in the league immune to relegation and having absolutely no repercussion for winning/ losing matches. God it's very simple stuff.
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1 hour ago, wastecoatwilly said:
You are posting mince does the Barcelona b team progress into the next round? How would i know weather the rest of the Celtic support will go to games?
Why would i want Spanish youth players to get better? It has absolutely got nothing to do with this proposal with this hypothetical imperative.
Why would other Scottish teams want Rangers and Celtic youth players to get better?
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4 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said:
That's 2 posts without answering the question, i have friends that support the bully wee they don't seem to think the league will be devalued?
You have Clyde supporting friends (plural) that think the Colt idea would be good for the league and wouldn't devalue it? Seems unlikely
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27 minutes ago, A Believer said:
Third of 3 posts citing Rangers and Celtic u-20's.
This thread is about maximising value of Dev Teams, and impacts of Project Brave on SPFL 2 teams. I'm not sure too many people on here (and I may be wrong) are terribly interested in what old firm coaches think.
Unless you have a perspective to positively influence a benefit to the SPFL2 community, off you pop now.Seems like blatant deflection of a valid point TBH. I tell you who will be interested? The youth players being coached by them. Baffling approach to a debate this one.
I have a perspective and it seems to be one that's shared by most. A positive influence would be supporting the vast majority of fans of Scottish clubs that don't want to see Colt teams in the league and realise the obvious reasoning for it. To better Rangers and Celtic youth players. Not Scottish youth players not the Scotland national team, Rangers and Celtic youth players.
If you don't see that then there's no point trying to have a debate with you.
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1 hour ago, wastecoatwilly said:
Any scenario you put forward is a education and a learning experience to the colt teams which in turn will help them develop, winning ugly or winning with a performance every different way to win a game of football,football is not an exact science.
So I'd put to you. What do you think the coaches would be saying after the game if the Colts had wasted the last 30 minutes of a competitive game by launching balls into corner flags, taking ages at free-kicks and throw ins and faining injuries to run down the clock?
You have an idealistic view on Colt teams because you support the idea. I don't think there is an example of a Colt team in any league that are protected from relegation (where relegation at that level exists). It wouldn't work. Competitive football is not comparable with a Colt team protected from said competition. they'll use games as training exercises because that's one way youths at that level have to develop.
Young players do not learn anything from standing at corner flags. Not sure what's so difficult to understand about this point.
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14 hours ago, PELE said:
I remember watching the 1988 reserve league cup final between Hearts and Dundee United. The United team was mostly youngsters and Walter Kidd was upto every dirty trick in the book trying to put them off. Dragging his studs down the back of the young strikers calf muscle when the ref was not looking etc.
One game, do you think that level of competition would be allowed/ tolerated over a 38 game season?
Also good luck to a 17 year old Celtic/ Rangers Colt player dragging their studs over a 35 year old no nonsense L2, part-time player that might just support the other half of the bigot brothers. He'd be put up in the air the next time he got close to the ball. Great for player development...
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19 hours ago, A Believer said:
I don't see it as baffling at at all. The fact that you say the colts 'will be' geared towards youth development suggests you're assuming. I was at a u-20's friendly with a junior club; one of them was sent off and both sides had to be spoke to about calming down!
I honestly don't see lack of competitive spirit being a factor; also every 20 is fighting to keep his place and catch the eye of the 1st team coaches. I'm kinda baffled why people think it's powder-puff. Any player not 100% on-it, doesn't last. These ARE the consequences.
Ok, most are not fully physically developed, but playing against seasoned seniors is good; as all our 20's do at their loan clubs.
So how can we further improve their physical and game development to increase conversion to 1st team? Again, don't start with 'not'; start with 'we could'
No one is questioning they won't want to win but their personal development will be the main mark of how they're measured by Celtic/ Rangers. I gave an example previously of them winning 1-0 with 10 minutes to go, would they run down the clock by time wasting? No development benefit in taking 2 minutes to kick the ball after a free-kick. Sometimes teams have to win ugly and defend leads with less that pretty tactics. The Colts won't need to worry about that. The same drives won't be there as other teams, you can give that one example but you can look at measurable evidence that bookings and sending offs are much much much less in development games than senior football.
Colts will get more praise for playing good and devloped football and losing a game 2-1 than they will for winning 1-0 and holding the ball up in the corner for the last 25 minutes.
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18 hours ago, wastecoatwilly said:
This works both ways,colt players need to develop a winning menality as well as league 2 players,if they dont make the grade they will get binned tae its a tough education.
But there is no debate that they won't have the same drives as other clubs and players, do players in the devlopment league have the same drive? They can actually win trophies there but as many people have told you they don't. It's a complete nonsense post. Team are winning 1-0 with 10 minutes to go, are those players as likely to run down the clock by playing balls into the corner and taking as long as possible at goal kicks and throw ins? There's no point in them doing that when the result doesn't matter. I'm not saying that is the right thing to do in football but it's fact, sometimes teams need to win ugly.
You're pretty clearly just hear to argue with everything and anything, even very obvious ogic that the winning mentality of Colts will be second to their personal development. Pretty sure if questioned any youth coach at Celtic or Rangers would say the same.
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On 2/17/2018 at 11:55, wastecoatwilly said:
I don't see the colts not wanting to win any less or more than the league 2 teams,even if you are playing a five-a-side game you want to win it's the nature of animal instincts.
That is just baffling, the Colts will be geared towards youth development and don't things that will help them progress as footballers. Sometimes teams at that level have to win ugly, they won't do that in any games. Won't see any high balls and there will be no consequences to the Colts losing. For the players in other teams it could be the difference between being a footballer the following season or not being.
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On 2/17/2018 at 10:21, wastecoatwilly said:
I think getting the right price for this level of football is important,double in price from lowland to league 2 is a bit steep for me.
lowland league £6
league 2 £9-£10
league 1 £13-£14
championship £17-£18How much would you charge fans of Scottish Premier teams when they know exactly who the winners of the competition will be before a ball is kicked? Surely less.
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10 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said:
Not to get too bogged down in semantics, but I'm not really defining "support" as just paying at the gate, just like most of those Old Firm fans in Galashiels probably didn't go to many games.
In Scotland being a supporter=going to the games, the culture in other countries is different. Whenever one of Turkey's big three are playing there are hundreds of thousands of folk in bars and cafes across Ankara shouting at the TV. These folk definitely consider themselves supporters and have eschewed their local club to support one four hours away.I'm going to be honest with you mate, I think there are a lot more fans in Scotland in comparison to football supporting population that support Rangers and Celtic than support one of the top two in Turkey. All the evidence seems to suggest that. Like you say there are arm chair fans in both countries but pubs are just as packed when Rangers and Celtic play. You might disagree
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1 hour ago, DiegoDiego said:
No, it's not massively different, but then it's quite tough to get more saturation than that. I'm quite embarrassed by the situation in Scotland, walking out of Dundee bus station to be met by a Celtic shop is not a situation I'd have let stand if I was on Dundee City Council (well, I'm not sure if their powers reach that far, but you get my point). Scotland is in far from a unique situation though. Even in similar countries the same problem exists. FCK supporters have formed a larger chunk of the Danish population every season since they came into existence. Even in places like Odense or Aarhus you're more likely to see a teenager in an FCK shirt than their local club.
We all know that attendances in Scotland are very high but I also reckon (from the occasional trawl through http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn.htm rather than any statistical comparison) that our attendances hold up very well as you go down through the leagues. Last season Arbroath had higher attendances in tier four than some top tier Greek, Belarussian, Albanian, Bulgarian, Serbian and Romanian clubs, probably a few others if I bothered checking them all. The attendances Dunfermline were getting in tier three would put them among the best supported teams in Hungary. In comparison with the rest of the world I don't think we're quite the glory hunters we're sometimes made out to be.Hmm, i do take the point you're making but in Scotland football is ingrained. It's a lot bigger I'd say than any of those quoted countries per capital. If we take the Danish example, their population is very similar to Scotland however their top two teams average 13k-14k Celtic and Rangers are at least three times that plus talking about a massive number more armchair fans. In Turkey you have a population of 79 million but their top two teams are only averaging 20k and 30k respectively. (four other teams in Turkey with at least 50% of those average crowds, there are zero clubs in Scotland with 50% the OF average.
I'm not sure how anyone can make a point that glory hunting in a country like Turkey with over 15 X the population of Scotland yet their top two teams being way less supported is worse than Rangers and Celtic in Scotland where 2% of the population would be inside either Ibrox or Celtic park if you take a sold out crowd at each ground? Likewise in Denmark with a similar sized population and less fans again. Scotland with a population of just over 5 million having two teams that can sell out 50k 60k arenas plus maintain shops in places like Dundee. I think the evidence is pretty clear, glory hunting in Scotland is much worse than these countries, if only because football is more popular.
Sorry if that's worded poorly I'm running out work lol
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1 hour ago, DiegoDiego said:
Yeah, I get what you were meaning but I still disagree. Take Turkey for example, about 70-80% of the population support one of the three biggest Istanbul clubs. Even somewhere like Ankara, which has two top tier teams, you're hard pushed to find someone who doesn't support Fenerbahce, Besiktas or Galatasaray.
That massively different from Scotland? I went to school in paisley for example and I could count on one hand the number of St Mirren fans. Even further afield, my missus lived in Galashiels for three years and I never met a single football fan that wasn't either Rangers or Celtic.
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16 hours ago, DiegoDiego said:
I hate seeing folk who grew up in Falkirk or Perth support one of the Old Firm, but if you think they're probably the two worst examples in world football then you need to see a bit more of the world.
I mean in regards to football fans from a certain countries turning their backs on local teams for other clubs man.
I know there are tourist clubs like Man City and Chelsea for example but I don't think there's as big a situation as say fans from Newcastle, Birmingham, Coventry supporting a big London, Liverpool or Manchester club, it will happen but not close to the extent of fans from Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Falkirk, Paisley and everywhere else in Scotland supporting Rangers or Celtic over local clubs.
In Scotland that problem is far worse than in any other country from what I can see. Even in Spain Real and Barcelona will certainly get tourist fans but football fans from other parts of Spain don't generally support the big two in a way that it happens in Scotland. They've actually had protests in Spain about the publicity those clubs get out of fear of turning into the Scottish league.
Hope I've explained what I meant a bit better there mate.
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3 hours ago, wastecoatwilly said:
It is not arrogance it is confidence,Celtic have only lost 2 games in 80,every fan wants their team to do well, i make no apology for enjoy celtic's domestic dominance.
I go to games wanting my team to win not expecting my team to win there is a difference,you can't take anything for granted.
Every club has their place in the Scottish game and every club has it's own story.
Celtic came from humble beginnings and that has never been lost to Celtic giving 10's of thousands to charity every year.
I grew up in the east end of Glasgow so Celtic is my local team so don't pretend you know me by generalising the Celtic support where they're many different walks of life.Oh aye, those first four year or so in the 19th century were so difficult, very humble compared to other clubs... Celtic are a perfect example of a corporate club with no identity left that matters. Some fans hold onto the Irish/ Catholic/ Bigoted routes that are a mirror image of their blue brothers, nothing but pointless in the modern day. For the most part though they are completely business orientated and faceless. Don't even have the local community/ city affiliation other clubs have with fans turning their backs on local clubs, jumping on supporters buses from far and wide.
Couldn't think of anything worse in football terms than sitting in a crowd of 50/60k strangers from Aberdeen, Kilmarnock, Hamilton etc knowing that these glory hunters are paying for my clubs trophies against teams with players on 1/20th the wages. Not saying it's just Celtic but them and Rangers are probably the two worst examples in World football of fans turning their backs on local teams. I'm also not saying every single St Mirren fan is from Paisley but at the level it happens with Rangers and Celtic, it just makes the teams so hollow IMO.
Glory is gone, there is no glory in winning a league with close to treble the budget of your nearest rival. But as long as you enjoy beating teams like Hamilton and Ross County and lifting several trophies a year, more power to you. Lets run over the small community clubs in Level 2, take away their competition to try and generate even more £££ for the ugly sisters.
Is there possibly a small part of you jealous that these teams have competition when your team does not?
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1 hour ago, SLClyde said:
My understanding is that the whole idea is off the table now.
Seems like it
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8 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said:
You are going off on a tangent here!Celtic's challenge is in Europe,as far as the league goes Celtic set the bar it's up to the other teams to come up to celtic's level not the other way round.
Hearts came up finished 3rd,rangers 2012 came up finished 3rd,Hibs came up this season could finish 3rd, what about the other 9 happy just to be in the league,killie and motherwell are having a decent season,it took Celtic years to get into this position and loving every minute of it.No they don't.
The 'it's other teams job to come up and challenge' is the biggest cop out and load of bull the Glasgow lovers say. You have glory hunting fans turning their backs on local teams all over Scotland. It will never happen. These fans line their pockets, to say other clubs should be coming up to challenge is nonsense.
If you're happy with flash in the pan teams finishing 3rd then fine, I would hate it. Zero competition and bought trophies. You like many fans of Celtic are happy to sit in your comfort zone saying our purse is bigger than yours. 100 trophies, double treble, two champions in 30+ years Zzzzzzzzzzz
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The European football level St. Mirren FC 2024/25 thread
in Scottish Premiership General Chatter
Posted
Maybe you shared a picture from the 2009 final against the dead team a year after the event?