BallochSonsFan

I'm happy to accept that the board are able to pull the plug before the deal goes ahead if the numbers don't stack up. Unfortunately I'm not buying that we're not exposed to any risk. The development vehicle could buy the Youngs Farm land, start selling commercial property contracts for the 6 development plots, borrow against the value of the site etc. We only agree to proceed with the development when all of the finance is demonstrably in place. Unfortunately that's the first bit that worries me. Theres a massive difference between having commercial contracts in place and having money in the bank. So we go ahead with the development and we start seeing bricks laid. We see concrete poured an a stadium take shape. What happens if some of the funding falls through? A commercial partner pulls out, goes bust or otherwise reneges on the deal? Or there's a development overspend and it take more money to complete phase 1? It's still the development vehicle who carry all of the risk and we can walk away? Really? Brabco, who will own 100% of the development vehicle, won't step in with their 75% voting rights at A/EGM to force a deal? Alternatively the developers could have a shiny new stadium waiting for us to collect the keys and some of the finance for the purchase falls through. What happens? Are the developers left with a completed phase 1 site that they can't sell to the club because our finance falls through? If it was a residential property deal and you were reliant on selling your own house in order to buy a new one then it's your job as the buyer to arrange bridging finance. For me theres a massive degree of risk involved. Turnberry Homes bought the old Newton site in 2007. Market conditions mean they haven't dug a foundation or laid a brick yet. Brabco bought the majority shareholding in March and by September that year we were in the grip of a world-wide financial crash. We can sign contracts and commence development with the best of intentions and the figures can stack up overwhelmingly in our favour when the first bit of earth is turned over but with the massive degree of volatility in the commercial and residential property markets, there's no guarantee that we're entirely protected from any unfavourable market changes beyond the assurances of a board of directors who, by their own admission, haven't met our majority shareholders. I want to take the club at face value. I want to believe that it's a smooth road from paper proposal to a pie and a Bovril in our new ground. I want to believe that we can walk away at any point in the journey until the developers hand us the keys to a completed Youngs Farm and a cheque for the surplus raised from the sale of the Bet Butler site. For a club that doesn't hold AGMs and owners who seem to have absolutely no relationship with the board? That's a hell of a lot of crossed fingers and some pretty big hopes and prayers.

I'm going tomorrow. Looking forward to hopefully getting some more information about the specifics of the development rather than the very broad outline.

It'll be interesting to see if we get any more information about the practicalities of the proposal on Wednesday. The journey from paper proposal to actually building the thing is massive and whilst Gilbert can assure us that any deal will be in the best interests of Dumbarton FC, the reality is that a 75% controlling interest gives Brabco free reign to do as they see fit. I don't grudge them a profit but given the numerous examples in British football over the past decade of owners screwing clubs for their own gain, it's understandable for fans to be massively cautious. If this is to go ahead, Brabco will need to become far more visible and transparent in order to build eve basic trust between themselves and the support.

I'd also consider Braehead. We're competing for fans with Rangers, Celtic and other sports. The Clan have come from nowhere and in their 5 year existance they've gone from 1000 fans a game to now selling out Braehead and bagging 3000 fans on a regular basis. Plans have been approved for a major arena upgrade. We might be the #1 football team west of Glasgow. Thats not to say that theres a market out there just waiting to be attracted to a new ground. Our crowd has been pretty static for several seasons and its hardly grown since I started following the Sons. If we can't get new fans along to the BB, why will we suddenly be able to market ourselves aggressively when we move to a new ground?

The £4million rough estimate is more than I could get from Gilbert when I asked him Wilf. He flat out refused to answer my question and stated quite clearly that he wouldn't be telling me any figures when pressed on the issue. Even rough ones. Moonster asked for a ball park figure as well. Answers were there none. As a purely paper exercise, theres little to object to in the public consultation. I have my own concerns regarding access to the ground via Renton Road and a potential traffic black spot getting back onto the A82 at Renton. I also find it more than a bit worrying when the public consultation calls for a single 1500 capacity stand for phase 1 when both Gilbert and the Rod the planning bloke were eager to tell me that they'd actually be building 2 stands for a 2000 capacity. But in general terms the notion of moving to the new site is relatively sound, with a massive caveat: It has to be in the best financial interests of the club and it has to be done in a way that protects the fans. Promises of a fully booked function suite for 52 weddings a year are brilliant. They don't pay any bills, but they're brilliant on paper. Same goes for the £130k income we'll get from 3 community pitches. If the market exists. If it doesnt then what looks great on paper suddenly starts to look questionable in practice. How much can the market afford to pay? How many brides are willing to have their wedding reception disrupted by 1500+ football fans on a Saturday afternoon? How many teams in west Dunbartonshire are going to give up their current training arrangements to flock to the Youngs Farm site? And what will the council do when local teams suddenly stop hiring local 3g pitches from them? Then theres the actual funding. The proposal is to sell the BB and to have contingency for 6 plots that can be developed to provide Dumbarton FC with finances to help pay for the development of the new ground should our existing site fall short in raising funds. Why can't we develop these 6 plots anyway and provide the club with additional money? How much will it cost to build the community facilities? Whats the time scale for them to start generating money for the club? How do Brabco fund development of the site before we purchase it from them? Will Dumbarton be expected to borrow at commercial rates in order to fund the move to the Youngs Farm site and then sell the BB? Theres a massive difference between what looks good on paper and what works in practice. On paper the proposals should be generally backed. In practice? What safeguards are in place that will ensure that we walk away if the deal isnt in the club's best interests? With Brabco owning a massive majority and therefore a controlling interest in the boardroom, fans can surely be forgiven for thinking that this is less a public consultation and more a fate accompli.

That'll be why they stuck all that Robert The Bruce/fake shields and ye olde chibs stuff in the now closed Renton train station.

The proposal did include a tourist information point but there was no mention of a themed tourist attraction.

2nd back row. My season ticket is in M

Purely selfishly on my part Moonster. If I've got a hockey game to go to straight from the football, I want to know that I won't be sitting trying to get onto the A82 at the Renton on-ramp until nigh on face off time.

The proposal is also wrong. It clearly stated that phase 1 will be the construction of the access road, 1 stand with a capacity of 1500 and 1 synthetic training pitch. According to Gilbert and the developer last night, phase 1 will actually be the construction of 2 stands - 1500 seats and 500 terraced. They're making this up as they go along.

Aye

I reckon you were there just as I was finished asking my questions Moonster. At one point I was convinced Gilbert was going to physically throw me out When the answer to the question "how are we going to pay for all this" is 'we're not paying for it, the developers are' then you know you're on a donkey ride to hell. A summary of my take on the whole sorry mess: 1. We'll have 2 large stands running the length of the pitch with 1500 fans in each and 2 terraces behind the goals holding 500 fans. The idea is to replace our current single 2000 capacity stand with a 1500 and 500 capacity stand. (Doesn't that increase maintenance costs? Answers on a postcard folks) 2. We're not going to pay for this - the developers are. We're absolutely 100% exposed to no risk. How are the developers going to fund it? No answer. How much are the developers going to charge us for the developed ground? No answer. We're apparently not going to ground share so we'll be moving from the BB to the completed Youngs side despite not actually knowing how the construction of the Youngs site will be funded. 3. So how much will this cost us? No answer. The plans include 6 plots that can be sold to help fund the development of the side but which won't be sold if the club make enough from the BB to pay for phase 1 (2000 capacity and 1 synthetic community pitch). Its up to us to fund further development for an increased capacity and further facilities. 4. The synthetic pitches will each earn us £45k a year. Gilbert knows this because he knows how much Stenny earn from theirs. He doesn't know how much people in Dumbarton will pay to use the pitches but he knows they'll earn £45k each. The developers know that the land won't flood so the pitches, despite being built on the only part of the development deemed by SEPA to be a flood plain, will be a constant money earner. We're also planning on having 52 weddings in the 300-capacity conference venue. Gilbert knows that there's a bevvy of blushing brides just dreaming of the prospect of their 5pm reception dinner being interrupted by 1500 fans leaving the ground because apparently there has already been 4 weddings held whilst football matches are taking place. Although not at the BB. These are other grounds. 5. How much is the current BB site worth? Don't know. How much will the new development cost us? Don't know. So how do we know that we're paying an appropriate rate for the new site? If the BB makes us £5million and the new development costs £2.5million, how much will we actually pay? Whats an acceptable profit to Brabco? £500k? £1million? £2.5million? Or do we get stuck into those development plots because they want a number with a lot of zeros behind it? 6. Why do we need 4000 capacity? It's an aspiration. Have we ever looked like needing a 4000 capacity? No, but what if we get promoted to the premiership? When has that looked likely? Well we can stick with the 2000 capacity then. - That you won't tell me how much it'll cost. A shambles of a proposal from start to finish. They propose an uncosted 4000 capacity ground plus 3 community synthetic pitches with no funding in place and no estimated costing available. We don't know how much the BB is worth so we don't know if we can afford the development. If we can't afford it then we can sell a further 6 plots on the Youngs site to earn enough to fund the development of the ground but apparently we can't sell the 6 development plots even if the BB sale does earn enough to pay for the new ground, even though that further influx of money could protect the future of the club for years. Despite not knowing how much the BB is worth or how much the development will cost, they can tell us that the synthetic pitches will bag us around £130k a year and that we'll have a wedding in the ground every weekend. We won't have to ground share because the shiny new stadium will be ready for us but we don't know how the construction costs will be met and it may even involve us borrowing against the value of the BB and paying commercial lending rates for the privilege of having somebody else build and sell us a new ground. Of course the option is there to remain at the BB despite us needing to increase the power of our floodlighting - a move that will be rejected by the council. Whilst the option is there to stay put, that effectively signs our demotion to League 2. There were other sites - Bowling was deemed to be too difficult and time consuming whilst Dumbuck was too small to allow us to consider additional revenue-generating development despite neither site being costed to see if they offered us better value for money than Youngs (which hasn't been costed) Apparently they'd had around 80 people during the day and I was the first person to show any real objections. Newsflash guys - most people tend to be at work between 10am and 5pm and anybody who did turn up during the day would have been met by the barrier into the club car park being closed. Hardly making access easy for concerned fans and residents. You can fool some of the people all of the time and you can try to rig the consultation session times to keep the mouthy b*****ds who'll ask the difficult questions away from the developers. Unfortunately what you can't do is pluck nonsense answers from thin air. Unless you're behind the development at Youngs Farm.

I work flex time and I was in the office for 7 this morning so I could finish early. I'll probably work til about 3 (I'm owed a couple of hours as well) and then head down to the BB.

Initial funding isnt necessarily the big concern for me. It would be pretty simple for us to sell the current ground for £X, buy the new ground for £Y and then use the remaining money to fund the construction of the ground. It's the values of X and Y I'd be concerned about. Thats the clearest way that Brabco make money - buy the Youngs land cheap, sell a plot to Dumbarton FC for a big mark-up and then make additional profit selling remaining plots to other businesses. But the proposal is for 4000 capacity which will be delivered in phases. Beyond the Cat A games, we're not in a position to sell out the BB. Phase 1 is likely to be the construcion of a single 2,000 capacity stand much like we have currently. What happens for phases 2, 3 and 4? What would the criteria be for building the extra capacity? What will the funding model be for building the extra capacity? Are we ringfencing some of the profit from selling the current ground in the hope that in the dim and distant future we'll grow our fanbase beyond a 2000 capacity ground? Or do Brabco ride off into the sunset with that money and we're then left with no slush fund to fulfil the original plans for stadium capacity? Who makes money from the ancilary businesses? Who'll run the community pitches? Who'll receive rent for commercial property build beside the ground? If the development attracts a pub/restaurant/fast food franchise who's main source of income is matchday revenue then why shouldn't their commercial rent be paid to the club? I can just about accept that we could sell the current ground first and then use the money to fund an initial 2000 capacity stand on the new site, with a season or two spent ground sharing. It's everything else about the plan (as little as I know of it so far) that troubles me. If they're promising a 4,000 capacity ground to be built in phases, whats the guarantee that we'll ever see completion of the project? Or that we'll get the infrastructure upgrades needed to get fans to and from the ground? Or that we'll see additional revenue sources from businesses attracted to the development?

This absolutely isn't about making it work for DFC. It's about returning a profit for the investors. There are several areas from the initial proposal that give me real concern. The devil is always in the detail with these things so, as you say, attendance at the open consultation and the Trust meeting is vital. Ask the difficult questions, get as much information as possible and if the owners/developers can't give satisfactory answers then don't be fobbed off with unrealistic promises. The Sonstrust will only be effective in protecting our interests if members play an active role and that means getting as much information as possible. I'm not suggesting that we're awkward for the sake of it but if they can't answer the important questions then we've done our job as fans in scrutinising their proposals.

Its an all ticket match. The club will be selling tickets until 12pm on the day of the game. I don't believe there will be a rush of Hibs fans looking to sit in with the home support so you could chance waiting til you're up and getting a ticket on the day. Alternatively, phone the stadium or drop them an email explaining your interest in attending the game and I'm sure the club will take payment via debit card and post your tickets out

Numbers 2 and 3 are particularly interesting. Supposing the Sons current ground goes for £3.5million and we get a 1 stand ground with a 2000 capacity for circa £1million including infrastructure upgrades. Brabco piss off with the remaining money and we're left without the promised extra capacity. Just as worrying would be what protection is in place for the club during the development phase of a new ground? We sell the BB. We're told that we'll be sharing with Stirling, Morton or even Glasgow Warriors until the new ground is built. Brabco piss off with the money by selling us the Youngs land at a massive mark-up and we're left homeless. They don't appear to have the resources to provide our new ground prior to us leaving the BB. We're in serious danger of being screwed over and left either homeless or with a poor ground that doesn't meet the original proposals.

Shite. Clan game starts at 7. Us v Falkirk on Teuchter TV at 5:30. Suppose I'll be recording the Sons game to watch later and going to the hockey. 5:30 kick off on a Saturday in December is shite.

Assuming they can find somebody to work the debit card machine.

Looks like tickets won't now be on sale this weekend for the Scottish Cup tie v Rangers as hospitality patrons will be using the supporters suite. What other club in Scottish football would actively make it more difficult for fans to buy tickets to attend a game? Normal office hours for the club are 9:30 tp 3:30. Most fans are working during those times. Even if some fans can get away from work at lunch time, those of us who work too far away to take advantage of a lunch break are left wondering how exactly we're supposed to buy tickets? Not even a late night opening for season ticket holders to go along after work and buy their cup ticket. Brilliant. I was borderline on whether or not to go to this game. With all the hassle of actually getting hold of a match ticket, I think I'll put my ticket money towards something else.

No doubt there will be some kind of bother at this game. There will only be 250 or so tickets on public sale - the club should be able to put a restriction in place to minimise the risk of having interlopers in with the home support.

An earlier kick off for Hibs away would be ideal for me. I'm not convinced I'd make Easter Road to Murrayfield Ice Rink during Saturday teatime traffic and I fancy seeing both my teams play in Edinburgh on October 11th. Still probably end up doing both games though.

Maybe worth offering a reduced price package for games like yesterday? It might not generate extra revenue on the day but if fans get a taste for it, they may be more inclined to book for future games?

I would have liked to have seen him getting more of a chance. If he isn't going to play then there's no point keeping him. It's harsh for folk to hold his football loyalties against him - I'd want any decision to be made for football reasons unless he did something that brought the club into disrepute. Bottom line is that he wasn't getting a shot at Dumbarton and he's at an age where he wants to be playing. If he needs to drop down the divisions to get a shot, or even go junior, then it's his choice to make.

Certainly a few.