Robert James

And Orkney FC in the NCL. But the problem for Lewis & Harris FC is that after the ferry they have to travel across the West Highlands as well.

Strathspey Thistle are also struggling in the HFL. 18th last season (below Fort), and their only 3 points this season came from a win at Claggan >

For the last 3 years, Lewis & Harris FC has played in some of the North Caledonian Cup Competitions (with some success), but have you ever tried the Western Isles ferry to the mainland in winter ? Not something you would want to do too often.

After joining the HFL in 1985/86, Fort William has struggled, finishing bottom of the table in 15 of their 31 years as members. The club's highest HFL position was 11th. The current situation seems more serious (only 13 players ?), so will the only West Highlands club in senior non-league football survive, fold, go into abeyance, or resign from the HFL and return to the North Caledonian League. Their loss would be very sad indeed. If Fort "go into abeyance" (as suggested above), a return to the HFL in the foreseeable future may be unlikely as the SFA wants to reduce the number of Highland League clubs to 16 (currently 18) in line with the Lowland League, and even if the HFL successfully rejects this membership reduction, Banks O'Dee will almost certainly apply to fill the vacancy.

The NCL has a similar (or worse) problem to clubs in the South of Scotland League, namely remoteness and the costs of travelling, which means that promotion within the pyramid would be financially crippling, and unattractive to part time and amateur players. Golspie (an SFA Member Club) doesn't want promotion, and Halkirk's interest in becoming licensed has unsurprisingly faded. Thurso has the population (comparable with Caithness neighbours Wick, and larger than many current HFL clubs,) which gives them a good level of support, but does not own its ground, and had not secured a long term lease sufficient to justify expenditure on ground improvements necessary for an SFA licence. I am a big supporter of the pyramid, but consider that clubs at the tier below the HFL and SLL should not be FORCED to take promotion when they are champions of their 'feeder' leagues. The SoSL has had the farcical situation where 2014/15 champions St Cuthbert Wanderers didn't carrying out minor ground improvements allegedly to delay being licenced, and in 2015/16 Wigtown & Bladnoch mysteriously lost form very late in the season (Edusport won the SoSL title, and gained promotion instead). Avoidance of promotion ? They SFA should recognise both the NCL and the North Region Super League as "feeders" to the HFL, but only by promoting clubs with an SFA licence who also confirm that they will voluntarily accept promotion, if champions. In the unlikely event that both the North Junior & NCL champions want promotion, a simple play-off would decide who gains promotion to the HFL. The glaring absence of a north of Scotland pyramid would therefore be solved without enforced promotion, and also give encouragement to any ambitious clubs who may have promotion aspirations in the future, but are currently excluded by the HFL's "closed shop". The NCL's senior status would also be officially recognised, making the northern Highlands and Islands an inclusive part of Scottish non-league football.

Cup attendances against the Development Teams of Premier League clubs have been a disaster in England. Not a good omen.

Edusport shouldn't be a Lowland club, but they achieved promotion in accordance with the current pyramid rules, which doesn't take "attendances" into consideration. Nor should it. If a West of Scotland 'senior' league had existed or been set up within the pyramid, Edusport would not have won promotion to the LL, and the future of the 'Shire Ground Saga' would have remained as a key (and important) issue in this thread.

Tut tut "Jacksgranda". The original thread was about Shire, but perhaps you missed 30+ subsequent Quotes that have widened the thread. Keep up.....and keep posting !

Great news about Bo'Ness. Will they be alone in doing so, or will other junior clubs follow next year ? However, we still need an integrated structure & pyramid though, so here is my proposal : level 1 : SPFL Premier 12 clubs as now (TV contract dictating this !) level 2 : SPFL Championship revamped with 16 clubs (playing each other twice, not four times per season) level 3 : SPFL National Division revamped with 16 clubs (playing each other twice) formed from 4 Div 1 clubs, 10 Div 2 clubs, 1 each from HFL & SLL champions. Thereafter bottom SPFL club automatically relegated to either HFL or SLL as appropriate. For one season only the HFL would be permitted to retain its 17th club, with HFL relegation in year two level 4 : HFL & SLL each with 16 clubs. Winning club from the HFL & SLL play-off will be automatically promoted to SPFL each season without a promotion/relegation play-off being required (as above). The bottom club in the HFL & SLL to be relegated each season, but only if 2 of the champion clubs from level 5 are licensed. If not, one or both would be reprieved. If only one or none of the four level 5 league champions are licensed, one or both bottom HFL or SLL clubs would be reprieved from relegation (a relegation playoff may be needed if only one of the four clubs qualifies for promotion) level 5 : SFA to designate 4 leagues as feeders to the pyramid : ie from each of the 3 Junior Super Leagues & the EoSL . The champion club of each of these 4 leagues, to participate in TWO promotion play-offs (ties drawn by a lot), but they can ONLY participate if Licensed. Clubs in these leagues would be encouraged to be licensed, but it shouldn't be compulsory. The winning club from each playoff to be promoted. Any club not wanting promotion to level 4, can therefore remain at level 5. Relegation from level 5 to level 6, to be determined by each league independently, with ONE PROVISO, promotion is not compulsory, and an SFA licence is not required for promotion below level 4 level 6 : comprised of the next level of the 3 Junior leagues, plus the SoSL and the NCL, with promotion to level 5 and relegation to level 7 being determined by each league independently . Again promotion is not compulsory, nor is an SFA licence level 7 : all remaining Junior leagues, ideally realigned as local leagues to avoid travelling costs, etc, where appropriate. level 8 : Amateur leagues (eg Border, Central, Kingdom of Fife, Lothian & Edinburgh, Midlands, Stirling, etc) would be offered the opportunity to join the pyramid, if they wished to do so, or alternatively to remain outside the above framework. The Scottish Amateur Cup would be retained KEY DECISIONS NEEDED TO MAKE IT HAPPEN * the Junior FA, and the other individual leagues & associations, both junior and 'senior' would be left intact, albeit as part of an integrated structure (hence minimum disruption) * reducing the number of SPFL tiers from 4 to 3 (albeit with 2 extra clubs as above) is an incentive for progression within the pyramid. It also avoids the need to play each other 4 times per season and reduces the number of (unpopular/expensive) midweek games at levels 2 and 3 * the EoSL, SoSL and the NCL would be eligible to enter the Scottish Junior Cup, which would otherwise remain as it is currently * SFA financial support for progressive clubs at level 5 should be revised/extended to current junior clubs, if they become SFA member clubs (joint SJFA/SFA membership would be acceptable, eg Girvan, Banks O'Dee) * The SFA would need to consult upon the details of the above, albeit making it clear that it will enforce the 'integrated' pyramid if necessary. Surely a "win-win" for everyone - especially the fans !! Implementation could be achieved for 2019/20 season.

Don't forget 'English' Berwick Rangers , playing in SPFL, plus Tweedmouth now playing in the Scottish pyramid - unless of course someone has moved the boundary. Also Monaco and Derry City ?

Sorry. Was the "any other juniors jumping ship" question too difficult for you ?

The NCL doesn't seek to become part of the pyramid under the current rules, even if the HFL were to end its closed shop attitude, because compulsory promotion for licensed clubs (if enforced by the SFA in the north) would kill NCL clubs on geographical, logistical, and financial grounds. In the past, Wick, Brora & Fort William have left the NCL for the HFL, because they have chosen to apply for membership at various times when the Highland was admitting additional clubs. Golspie holds an SFA club licence, but the HFL requires all clubs to have floodlights under its rules so it is debarred anyway. Shetland FC, and Lewis & Harris FC only play in some of the NCL cup competitions,, because of their remoteness, the weather & the Atlantic ocean in winter ! As an aside, NCL support levels are better than many of the SoSL clubs, which isn't surprising given the population (and catchment areas) of towns like Thurso, Kirkwall, Tain, etc. Also, the whisky is excellent when the weather is rough ! HFL 2 has been mooted, but it would need to have "north" (NCL) and "east", divisions, with the latter replacing the North Junior Super league. (This would no doubt be supported by HFL 'promotion seekers' Banks 'O Dee, but no other north juniors to date. Also, the NCL would not willingly surrender its historical independence as a free standing 'senior' league.

Yes Kelty are doing well (as expected), so with the EoSL in view, let's move the "junior into senior debate" forward. Now that Kelty has been awarded an SFA club licence, which other juniors will jump ship and join the EoSL in May 2018 ? Bo'Ness, Bonnyrigg, Haddington, others ? Anyone heard any whispers on the grapevine ?

"Sugar Daddy" ? The club should approach Sir Alex, who started his mega managerial career at Shire, and is probably bored in retirement !

So what !! More importantly does any Shire supporter (or official) know if these two ground alternatives have or are being considered ?

Camelon Juniors would be an obvious Shire venue, especially if they are seeking a partner club for Carmuirs Park, but surely this should have been considered before ?

Yea - FK 4 ! Shire needs some permanency soon if the club is to survive, and sharing the dreaded Ochilview is not a long term solution. Has Westfield Park ever been considered - it is not much further away than Larbert, and seems to have some potential for improvement. A Firs Park return seems as unlikely as ever, and would be dead in the water if the size of the pitch can't comply. Little Kersh also dead ? Other alternatives ? "West" Stirlingshire - so what, its a lot better than Clydebank ! There are a number of British clubs whose ground is now outside their original City boundary. Shire must survive !

Is there enough space at Firs Park to meet the minimum SFA size for the pitch ? As an alternative ground, how about seeking a joint venture with Dunipace Juniors to share and develop Westfield Park in Denny ?

The NCL has reinvented itself during the last couple of years, with Invergordon, St Duthus, Inverness Athletic, Orkney and Bunliddlh (re)joining the league competition. Looking at its website, it now appears that Balintore FC is also intending to re-enter the NCL next year. Now 9 league clubs, with 4 others playing in some of the NCL cup competitions (only). Will the likes of Dornoch or Dingwall also seek to (re)join this long established league from the far north ?

The SFA must change the rules so that clubs winning the SoSL ( or the EoSL and NCL) are not FORCED to take promotion to the Lowland (or to the HFL for NCL clubs, if ever the Highland ends its membership 'closed shop'). Declining promotion should not mean the club automatically loses its SFA licence as participation in the Scottish should still be permitted - providing the club concerned meets the other SFA licensing criteria . There is a real danger that the current rules will destroy the SoSL. Furthermore, the allegations around St Cuthberts and Wigtown deliberately avoiding promotion, would not reoccur., Also, if this results in a SLL club being reprieved from relegation, then so be it. Threave wanted to be relegated from the Lowland, but Preston apparently did not.