Robert James

Yes the 2x10 is a fall back position agreed between the SFA and the HFL, should a 'highland' club get relegated from Division 2, whilst a 'lowland' club gets promoted to the SPFL. Hence this part of your statement is factually accurate. However the proposal put to the HFL AGM (at that time) was the implementation of 2 x 10 with immediate effect, as an alternative structure. It was voted down ! The HFL has not stated that if an 'extra' club applies, say Banks or Golspie or A N Other, that it will elect a 19th club and split to 2 divisions., and I am not aware of any published, or minuted decision to do so , should a Junior or NCL club apply for HFL membership If you can produce anything substantive, to the contrary, I will admit I was wrong. Otherwise we must agree to differ. I wish there was a north pyramid below the HFL, but there isn't. I also wish there was a West pyramid feeder, but if you read the above thread about Talbot and promotion to the SPFL, sadly I can't see one happening in the foreseeable future either. Regarding Banks and the HFL, watch this space , if Cove Rangers win promotion.

Yes your post is accurate stating that no North junior club has applied to join the HFL since the pyramid was formed. I guess everyone who reads these posts knows that ! Here are some important points which you may have missed : 1. there is no pyramid in the North, so you can't apply join it (it is currently a closed shop)> Licensing is time consuming and expensive, and pointless at present 2. the Highland League has had "no vacancies" since the pyramid was formed, so there has been no point in any club applying to join it 3. the SFA has imposed a maximum number of HFL member clubs (primarily to avoid a fixture pile up at the season's end, thereby causing potential delays and uncertainty around the HFL/SLL and Winner/bottom SPFL club play-offs). The SFA wanted the limit at 16 clubs but the HFL rejected this, and the SFA backed down 4. five North junior clubs have left the Juniors and joined the senior HFL since 1985, filling vacancies which the HFL created. This drift from junior status to seniors has not been mirrored in the West or East Regions (until Kelty) 5. had the HFL decided to form 2 divisions of 10 a couple of years ago, how do you know there would have been no applications from Junior clubs to fill 1 or 2 of the vacancies ? I don't. 6. Banks O'Dee also applied (in 2009) to leave the juniors and join the HFL, but were the unsuccessful club and not elected. The club was allegedly livid at its rejection ! We will see if the Chairman of Banks O' Dee's current view (as reported) that the club doesn't wish to join the HFL, holds firm, if an HFL vacancy is created by Cove Rangers gaining promotion this season to the SPFL. You may of course be right on this point. Interesting though !

I agree entirely with your view that few if any West Junior clubs have little or no desire to join the SPFL. So I can't see how "moving forward into some better structure" can be achieved. Clubs like Spartans, East Kilbride, Cumbernauld Colts, East Stirlingshire, BSG, Gala Fairydean, etc, wouldn't countenance joining a structure which doesn't have SPFL promotion. And a WoS 'feeder' can only work if promotion for playoff winners is compulsory, which it seems West clubs won't accept whatever "better structure" is put in place. So any on-going debate about the formation of a WoS feeder into the pyramid (even if it was via a new Lowland West feeder league), is sadly pointless.

I don't do vitriol. My contribution (such as it is) is factual, unless I state otherwise, eg "allegedly", "apparently", etc, and was originally based on 50 years of following Scottish Highland League & North Caledonian League football, and other non-league clubs (formerly) in SFA membership (eg Aberdeen Uni, Whithorn, Vale of Atholl, Glasgow Corporation Transport, etc) . Perhaps an historian, with an anorak or two. The Lowland League's creation, and the pyramid, has broadened my interest considerably, and is in my view, a major challenge, albeit beneficial to Scottish football. Intriguing, but often unnecessarily unpleasant is the vitriol between 'junior' and ,senior, pie shoppers, although the issues and problems are real enough, and football is nothing if it isn't about passion. . My query about Talbot was that in the unlikely event that a WoS league was created at tier 5 (equivalent to the LL and HFL with SPFL promotion play-offs), would the club join it, or ('apparently' like most other junior clubs), does it not aspire to Scottish League membership ? This morning I was accessing the website of Third Lanark AFC, already having success at adult and junior levels. Its website www.thirdlanarkafccommunityclub.co.uk contains a very clear statement about its current situation and longer term aspirations (in the senior ranks). Worth a look.

"No junior club has done that yet" - rubbish. Of the current Highland League members, ex- junior clubs Cove Rangers, Inverurie, Formartine, Strathspey & Turriff all applied to, and were elected to the HFLduring the last 20 years. Banks O' Dee applied, but were not elected. (The other newer clubs, Wick Academy and Fort William were elected from the NCL. Also, it was surprising to read that Banks chairman is apparently not interested in joining the HFL. Let's see if this viewpoint holds true if Cove win the SPFL promotion play-offs this year, leaving one vacancy in the Highland ! Incidentally, don't rule out Aberdeen Uni applying for a licence in the next few years. They were full SFA members in the 60's & 70's, and would welcome the opportunity to play in the Scottish Cup. They couldn't be forced to join a north pyramid, because there isn't one !

Tell me how Junior clubs in the North can get in? Hello to Isabel Goudie. A reply from me at last First the 'good' news for you : yes the North is a closed shop, as there isn't any opportunity for the 2 licensed clubs Banks O'Dee (Juniors) and Golspie Sutherland (NCL). The Highland League has 18 clubs and it cannot take any additional clubs. Also Golspie has never sought Highland League membership, being content to remain in a competitive but small (senior) North Caledonian League, which the SFA doesn't recognise as a feeder league.. Now the 'not so good' news for you : I am not aware that any of the west of Scotland junior clubs have challenged the SJFA by instructuring it to open negotiations with the SFA regarding (say) incorporating the West Super League to become a pyramid feeder league at ANY level. There is a false impression that the reason for this lack of challenge to the SJFA is that West Clubs consider themselves superior to the Lowland League and don't wish to degrade themselves. This is complete nonsense because few if any of the west clubs seek promotion to the SPFL (Talbot is a possible exception, like Clydebank), and there is no point in joining a pyramid (even at level 5) if junior clubs want to stay where they are. No pyramid league can operate unless promotion to level 5 to the SPFL is compulsory. So if Talbot wants to progress, the only route is the existing pyramid - not perfect, but improving year on year.e Meanwhile the SJFA sits on its hands, comfortable in the knowledge that its existence is not being seriously challenged by any mass exodus of its top west clubs.. Finally the 'other' news : Glasgow Uni has remained amateur, and has a very long standing continuous SFA Membership. If a West feeder league is ever created (?) it may well join.

You can't be serious.... John Mac

Like any organisation or association, the SFA is entitled to set out the rules of membership. If clubs don't like the rules, they don't join. The licensing rules have already changed and will continue to do so (evolve) over time. Not perfect, but they were drawn up to encourage clubs, not exclude them from Membership, taking into account the SJFC 'traditions'. Junior clubs should stop moaning, and consult with/or ballot their members to find out as to whether or not they want to join the 'exclusive' SFA Pyramid Club. If not, stay as they are , and let's see how things have turned out in ten years time. Of far more interest IMO, it would be interesting to know from Pie Shoppers, if they are aware of clubs who appear to be actively preparing for licensing, albeit without going public .And what do ambitious players consider is best for them in their playing career ? Pyramid or Junior ? As an aside, does anyone know when is the next Licensing Committee Meeting is taking place ?

not disclosable but nice try

Glasgow Uni won't consider the pyramid unless a West feeder is established.

Possibly Clydebank ? Any news on their Members ballot ?

Possibly, but a formal application about membership of the new Lowland League was made by representatives of a club called Third Lanark, albeit not 'progressed'. Also on 20th January 2018, the Scottish Sun reported that "Thirds' Legends have reunited for a BBC Scotland TV Documentary on the club's demise". Yes, Cathkin Park is a non starter. However, Third Lanark (Amateur) FC seems to be thriving on the field, and are now ground sharing at Vale of Clyde JFC. This amateur club also has a successful youth team. Coincidences ?

And Falkirk Juniors.......

I agree it isn't practical TODAY. But given SFA support, a WoSL could be created for 2019/20, if the West Super League clubs decided collectively to seek SFA approval to become a tier 6 feeder to the Lowland League. Thereafter ambitious clubs could get licensed and progress up the pyramid, and other WoSL clubs who don't seek promotion (and a licence), can remain at tier 6, continuing to play against their traditional rivals. Whilst contemplating a WoSL, have P&B devotees noticed that Third Lanark (Amateur) FC were champions of the Greater Glasgow Premier League Division 3 last season, and are currently top of Division 2, having played 10 and won 10 games. I wonder if this club has long/mid term pyramid aspirations ?

IMO Bonnyrigg will never seek to join the pyramid, as the club wants to remain as a 'king of the (east) castle' . I recently spoke to one of its regular fans (a taxi driver) who told me that the 'committee members' are very strongly opposed to the pyramid, and wish it had been strangled at birth. I anticipate that if the present 'drift' from junior to senior status continues, the SFA will change the rules about participation in the Scottish Cup, by excluding ALL non-pyramid clubs, regardless as to whether they are Super League champions, Junior/Amateur Cup winners, or current 'senior' clubs with historic SFA membership. What is preventing the SFA from doing so, is the absence of the right to promotion in the North, where Banks and Golspie remain outside the pyramid.

A new WoSL for next season , with Colts teams in it ? No one has responded on this forum, from any Junior or Amateur League clubs suggesting that this is true, so it must be "fake news" (to quote President Trump)! It is however interesting to hear that (allegedly) 2 west super league clubs are actively considering a move to the pyramid. Or is that more "fake news" ?

Colts teams - no thank you. Look at the significant fall in attendances south of the border when league clubs play Colts/Development teams in cup matches. Regarding restructuring of the SPFL and the non league pyramid, the following would be achievable without major surgery, SPFL 12 - 16 -16 (ie 3 SPFL tiers only), with 2 extra SPFL clubs promoted (as a one off) to fill the vacancies 2 up 2 down throughout bottom club in tier 3 relegated automatically, replaced by Highland/Lowland play-off winners Pyramid maintain the existing EoSL & SoSL play-off system, but with promotion to the Lowland League being VOLUNTARY and not compulsory for clubs with an SFA licence incorporate East & West Region Super Leagues as Lowland feeder leagues, with participation in a promotion play-off to the SLL being VOLUNTARY and subject to an SFA Licence if both the (separate) EoSL/SoSL and E & W Junior playoffs produce a club which meets the criteria (as above), both would be promoted, with the 15th & 16th SLL clubs being relegated (to a feeder league of their choice) incorporate the North Region Super League and the North Caledonian League as Highland League feeders, with promotion being VOLUNTARY and subject to a play-off, in the unlikely event that both champion clubs are licensed and are seeking promotion) if a promotion candidate club emerges (from the North Super League or the NCL)) it would be promoted, replacing the bottom club in the HFL which would be relegated to the feeder league of their choice the SFA to guarantee that the above realignment would be retained for 5 years, and be subject to a review to be conducted jointly with the six feeder leagues as above Advantages of the above a streamlined 3 tier SPFL, giving more scope for a competitive mixture of full time & part time clubs than currently exists ending the unpopular system of SPFL clubs playing each other 4 times per season, and reducing the number of midweek games (for the mutual benefit of part time clubs & players) incorporating the Junior Leagues into the pyramid system, with a clear route to SPFL membership for all ambitious clubs, by evolution rather than by revolution (with the SJFC) retaining the existing/separate "senior" and "junior" leagues for a minimum period of 5 years subject to review (as above) discontinuing the compulsory promotion of EoSL and SoSL clubs to the SLL , thereby avoiding a future St Cuthbert and Wigtown 'farce' allowing the Junior & NCL clubs the option of obtaining or declining promotion to the Lowland or Highland League overcoming the problem where there is no pyramid for ambitious clubs like Banks O'Dee, where none exists at present.

The SFA wants more junior clubs in the pyramid, so there would be 'pressure' on both leagues to accept them. Which league ? it is up to the Bankies, because they have to make the application , not the SFA. Financially the EoSL is their best choice, but becoming champions (to progress to LL) would be more difficult than in the SoSL, given the East's higher quality.

Surely Clydebank would join the SoSL not the EoSL, both for geographical reasons, and as it would give them a quicker (one season?) route through the pyramid to the LL ? This is what Edusport Academy did.

If there is to be a West feeder parallel to the EoSL, current SFA Member clubs Glasgow University and Girvan would probably be founder members.

Possibly Bo'Ness who announced a year ago that they were looking to join the EoSL, albeit with a 'proviso' that they weren't ready for 2017/18. Does anyone know if they have made any progress towards SFA licencing ? Not sure if an 18 club EoSL for 2018/19 is practical given the total number of extra fixtures required. Perhaps the EoSL should canvass interest for a return to 2 divisions (x 10 or 12 clubs) for 2019/20 ? Well done Dalkeith !!!

Anyone know what the attendance was for the Berwick game ?

I agree on both points. Would an all weather pitch at Claggan be feasible, as it might help Fort attract/retain players ? Surely there must be an external funding source. Regarding Skye, why doesn't the island enter a 'combined' team in one or more of the NCL cup competitions ? Shetland FC and Lewis & Harris FC have done so, and been successful. This would at least provide a few winter matches.

I gather than L&H FC players are primarily islanders who are keen to play a few NCL cup games, but not to commit to a league programme.

Good point. Glad to know that you are keeping up. Have you any new thoughts on the original topic/post after 79 pages ?