Livingston - all the threads merged

[Guest zupa]

Shite.

Ok, where's the bucket ? .

[AND180Y]

Ok, where's the bucket ? .

Reception desk at Livi?

[LLD]

Yes the way they allegedly treated you to make you change your mind about things was shite.

Is it really 9 months since you insulted Massone by asking to get paid?

Was all good up till that point.

They got the benefit of the doubt for the first few weeks which was only right. Then Angelini started his lies about getting paid 'in a couple of days'.

Then, a week or two later, Massone insulted my intelligence by giving me some pish about 'next week' in a very amateurish meeting before the PRE SEASON game against Coventry City and I knew it was time to quit.

The simple fact of the matter is that neither of those two have any significant money despite their claims to have invested £500k of their 'own personal money'.

The two missing directors are the ones with the moola, and it's quite apparent that they aren't for giving Massone any to help him out of the hole he is in. And who can blame them?

That there are still mugs in the Livi support prepared to give them any slack beggars belief.

[Guest]

They got the benefit of the doubt for the first few weeks which was only right. Then Angelini started his lies about getting paid 'in a couple of days'.

Then, a week or two later, Massone insulted my intelligence by giving me some pish about 'next week' in a very amateurish meeting before the PRE SEASON game against Coventry City and I knew it was time to quit.

The simple fact of the matter is that neither of those two have any significant money despite their claims to have invested £500k of their 'own personal money'.

The two missing directors are the ones with the moola, and it's quite apparent that they aren't for giving Massone any to help him out of the hole he is in. And who can blame them?

That there are still mugs in the Livi support prepared to give them any slack beggars belief.

LLD, it's becoming increasingly clear that he is playing with words wrt the "500k investment". I think soon enough it will become clear that this investment will take the form of the club actually being a further 500k in debt, and that he hasn't put in a penny. Going on my instincts alone, I have a feeling that the club's debt will currently be into seven figures. I don't know what overdraft facilities LFC has, but you can bet it will be maxxed out to its absolute limit. On top of that, there will be a myriad other debts that haven't been settled, and the stalling tactics will be in overdrive. Your Manager of Operations (or whatever she is called) claims that creditors are being paid, but I'm pretty convinced it will be wordplay, and in all probability, its the stuff less than 500 quid which will be getting paid.

That season tickets sales now offer the only route to managing long overdue invoices simply means that players contracts and all of the club staff will be existing hand to mouth on gate money next season. With ICT now in the league, that'll mean a good few hundred off the visitors gate next season. As the team will almost certainly post the smallest attendances for the coming campaign, Livingston might well be running on 1,000 or so gate paying customers per game bringing in something like 15k.........30k a month.

From that, there will be 12k in rent unless the council cut it (which opens a whole can of worms for other rented council property). Even if its dropped to 5k, there is VAT, income tax, rates, electricity etc etc. There will probably be something like 15k or so per month to pay everyone. A squad of first division journeymen will eat up every penny of that.

Massone is trying to run a top end first division set up on 2nd division revenues. Had his "investment" truly been the 45k a month he claims, the Livvy would be doing just fine. They aren't doing just fine, because he isn't putting in 45k a month.

All the sycophantic fools with their Italian flags and cheesey Google translated Italian sentences at the bottom of their postings need to give themselves one almighty wake up slap.

Edited May 27, 2009 by Guest

[lucas514]

a another sad situation 2 unfold here,

why is it foreign men get so much power off a club and run it 2 the ground, and eventually they get 2 walk away and the fans off the club gets left with the mess, i.e the whole dundee situation , at least they got 2 see a bit class at there club, the livi guys have given next 2 nothing

[itzdrk]

we all love live not that airdrie got relegated

save yourselves

dont let scum prosper

[Guest]

a another sad situation 2 unfold here,

why is it foreign men get so much power off a club and run it 2 the ground, and eventually they get 2 walk away and the fans off the club gets left with the mess, i.e the whole dundee situation , at least they got 2 see a bit class at there club, the livi guys have given next 2 nothing

Exactly the same reason as there are so many foreign journeymen players in Scotland..........we are suckers for a bit of Continental style. On one of those little post graduate trials a decade or so back, three Scottish managers/coaches were asked to look at 3 players on video tape with a view to being potential signing targets. They were told one of the players was a Scot living abroad, another was from Irish extraction, and the third was Italian. They could all be had for the same transfer fee and salary. They had to pick one, and one only.

They all picked the Italian guy. Only problem was that one coach was told Player A was Italian, the second coach was told Player B, and the third was told Player C.

We get fascinated by foreigners in footballing roles, and we want to believe they have some European pedigree that we cannot match, and that if we get past the language difficulties they will fall in love with us.

[Jimmy Baker]

And how would he manage to spirit cash from any sale of Leigh Griffiths? Even he surely couldn't just pocket it?

Don't you kid yourself. A good few years ago an ailing Scottish football club was bought by a foreign national. At the start he appointed 4 directors who would run the club while he was out of the country, one of whom had been my best man when I was marrried. Their personal stakeholding in the club was small with the vast majority of the shares being held by the owner. At first he put some cash in and the club was promoted to the top division but when it became obvious that this did not result in a huge revenue stream with an associated profit margin this guy quickly lost interest and the club was promptly relegated. After that he made very few visits back to the club and left it to sink or swim under the stewardship of the 4 directors. They made a decent fist of it, paying off bills by occasionally putting their hands in their own pockets, reducing the outgoings and overheads and were in a position at the end of the season where there was enough money in the bank to pay the salaries and bills over the close season. One of the bills was a rather hefty payment to another club as a last installment on a transfer fee for a player who had been signed while the owner had still been interested. They had tried to approach the owner to offer to take the club off his hands but that proved difficult as he was out of touch for months on end, often reported to be in South America "on business". Anyway, a few days after the final board meeting when the relatively happy state of the club's financial position was reported, who should turn up in the city for the first time in ages but the owner. He made one visit which was to the club's bank where he withdrew all the money in the account and b*****ed back to the country from whence he came. My pal and the others then had to run around getting the cash to pay the bills and make arrangements to do it through other sources than the club's regular bank in case the same thing happened again. The club was eventually sold to another party but this was delayed as the four directors fought to get the money they had put in over the time they had been in charge back.

This is a long winded way of saying that these guys don't opperate by the same standards as most of us do and you better believe that if there is money lying around there is every chance an unscrupulous owner will lift it. I'll leave it up to you to decide whether you think Mr Massone is such a person.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Jimmy Baker

[Homer Thompson]

Surely the SFL should be stepping in now?

They were given assurances wages would be paid, which they werent, now the club has a begging bowl out to help with running costs.

Its obvious that Massone cannot fulfil whatever promises he made to the SFL, so what are they waiting for?

[banjo player]

Its obvious that Massone cannot fulfil whatever promises he made to the SFL, so what are they waiting for?

Perhaps howls of indignation from other clubs' directors? Don't hold your breath, it ain't going to happen, this week's Livi is next year's Raith Rovers, Partick Thistle or ICT.

[Guest]

Perhaps howls of indignation from other clubs' directors? Don't hold your breath, it ain't going to happen, this week's Livi is next year's Raith Rovers, Partick Thistle or ICT.

SFL won't act as they are probably the least motivated governing body in the UK. That gross fiscal mis-management goes on underneath their noses without them saying or doing anything is pretty much consistent behaviour from them.

[Monster]

The SFL's AGM is happened at the moment. Maybe they'll take action after today?

[Guest Flash]

Posted this before in another thread. SFL rules from their website

76.2 The Management Committee shall also have full power to deal with as it thinks fit, including

power to deduct championship points before or during a season and/or to impose a player

registration embargo on any club guilty of conduct contrary to the interests of the League and

its member clubs or any registered player or former registered player, or potentially likely to

prejudice the orderly progress of the League Championship and/or the League Challenge Cup

competition in any season. Such conduct, for the avoidance of doubt, may include a club in or

going into Administration, Liquidation, Receivership, Sequestration or any other insolvency

procedure by whatever means or having a Judicial Factor appointed to its undertaking. For the

further avoidance of doubt, a club in or going into any such procedure will remain responsible

for the purposes of this Rule for the conduct of its undertaking by any Administrator, Liquidator,

Receiver, Trustee in Sequestration, Judicial Factor or other such officer appointed to it.

Them's the rules.

[ObserverFromAfar]

Posted this before in another thread. SFL rules from their website

76.2 The Management Committee shall also have full power to deal with as it thinks fit, including

power to deduct championship points before or during a season and/or to impose a player

registration embargo on any club guilty of conduct contrary to the interests of the League and

its member clubs or any registered player or former registered player, or potentially likely to

prejudice the orderly progress of the League Championship and/or the League Challenge Cup

competition in any season. Such conduct, for the avoidance of doubt, may include a club in or

going into Administration, Liquidation, Receivership, Sequestration or any other insolvency

procedure by whatever means or having a Judicial Factor appointed to its undertaking. For the further avoidance of doubt, a club in or going into any such procedure will remain responsible

for the purposes of this Rule for the conduct of its undertaking by any Administrator, Liquidator,

Receiver, Trustee in Sequestration, Judicial Factor or other such officer appointed to it.

Them's the rules.

Thanks Flash!

They sound impressive at first, but when optional and flimsy words such as "may" "it sees fit" and the lack of actual firm rules about points deductions or relegations in any pre-described situation, gives any Committee a lot of wriggle room to decide:

1. whether they even want to look at any case;

2. and then, if they elect to examine a case and conclude that it is not 100% legitimate, whether they need to apply any penalty at all.

To be balanced, it may be covered elsewhere in the rules, but, Flash, I have no doubt that you have looked at the rules and this is the only relevant section. Therefore, the rules concur with what Banjo and Mr Freemason said earlier on at 12:37 & 13:37.

[jay_7]

Thanks Flash!

They sound impressive at first, but when optional and flimsy words such as "may" "it sees fit" and the lack of actual firm rules about points deductions or relegations in any pre-described situation, gives any Committee a lot of wriggle room to decide:

1. whether they even want to look at any case;

2. and then, if they elect to examine a case and conclude that it is not 100% legitimate, whether they need to apply any penalty at all.

To be balanced, it may be covered elsewhere in the rules, but, Flash, I have no doubt that you have looked at the rules and this is the only relevant section. Therefore, the rules concur with what Banjo and Mr Freemason said earlier on at 12:37 & 13:37.

My thoughts exactly. The SFL are a bunch of spineless f***s.

[Guest Flash]

Thanks Flash!

They sound impressive at first, but when optional and flimsy words such as "may" "it sees fit" and the lack of actual firm rules about points deductions or relegations in any pre-described situation, gives any Committee a lot of wriggle room to decide:

1. whether they even want to look at any case;

2. and then, if they elect to examine a case and conclude that it is not 100% legitimate, whether they need to apply any penalty at all.

To be balanced, it may be covered elsewhere in the rules, but, Flash, I have no doubt that you have looked at the rules and this is the only relevant section. Therefore, the rules concur with what Banjo and Mr Freemason said earlier on at 12:37 & 13:37.

I couldn't find anything else in the rules that was relevant, but I didn't read them all in detail. I may have missed something.

I just highlighted the bits I thought might be relevant, without commenting on them.

Everybody can make their own mind up regarding whether this is a spineless rule or one drafted to allow maximum flexibility depending on how seriously the Management Committe view any "offence".

Edited to add - the rules are available on the SFL website if anybody wants to check whether I missed anything.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Flash

[LLD]

To be fair, the SFL have their moments of brutality like when they docked Hamilton 15 points which relegated them to the Third Division. They also took a fairly strong line with the Gretna administrator last year, effectively forcing them to resign.

Much would depend, no doubt, on the composition of the Management Committee and the vested interests that apply.

It should be interesting to see how it unfolds over the next few weeks, especially when they find out that certain players still haven't been paid for April. Then there's the mystery surrounding Hegarty and Robertson.

[Homer Thompson]

SFL won't act as they are probably the least motivated governing body in the UK. That gross fiscal mis-management goes on underneath their noses without them saying or doing anything is pretty much consistent behaviour from them.

Too true.

However, they are already involved and have already said something, publicly. I beggars belief that after dragging Massone in they can stand by and watch the latest developments without acting.

We've drawn Livvy in the Challenge Cup - so looks like a bye for us then

[Chuckinho]

What exactly have the SFL said about Livi? Was this just a bluff or a serious threat?

[HibeeJibee]

Yes, the SFL is doing nothing here and that is a disgrace. But the organisation is still running more or less as in the 1890s!! Still 1 club 1 vote; still archaic Management Committee (contrast with the SPL's stream-lined and professional Executive); one 'senior' professional member of staff (David Longmuir) supported by a skeleton secretarial team. SFL is just a meek hollow shell. It cannot act.