Livingston - all the threads merged

[Swampy]

They seem to be tarring the whole support though, that's my point. Just because some idiots are so blind, why should rest of the fans be stereotyped as such?

It just makes the "more gifted Livi supporters" more frustrated and less likely to listen to their advice. There are a lot of people who dislike our club, it's quite clear. If Duncan etc. begins to act like he did with that post he'll be tarred as one of them when I don't think he is (apart from the Celtic jibes that were prominent before this whole situation came to light).

If it makes you feel better just go through Duncan's posts with a find and replace, changing "all" to "95%", the effect will still be the same.

If the more gifted Livi supporters want to act like big weans that's their lookout.

[orco]

For me it goes back to the very beginning of the "Trust". BrianW was the driving force and had tried to get it going for a year or so before it got started. He was the first chairman but once things settled down the rest of them ganged up on him to force him out. The egos had taken over and the clique has been in place ever since.

He was so sickened by it all that he stopped going to the games. Before that he was a regular home and away and helped with the running of the OL supporter's team too.

I am a member of the Livi Trust Board. Brian W had left before I joined. In any case I was under the impression that he had relocated to the Inverness area before he left the Trust. In the slight chance that anyone believes what MCL has written regarding the present composition of the Board I would like to clarify that there is no clique. Each year we appeal for more people to join. Because of the present crisis at Livi we were successful in adding to the Board numbers at our last AGM - something that often happens in every Trust when things are not going well. We have worked very hard with weekly meetings and many hours of personal time to produce what we see as a viable Business Plan. Our over-riding motive presently is to ensure that our club survives if there is a repeat of what happened under Dominic Keane. We really don't have time to cultivate egos.

I do know that MCL has personal issues with one member of the Board but he has never even been introduced to me or most other members of the Board so knows next to nothing about us.

As to Duncan Freemason's question regarding the vilification of Livi for Life by some, one reason could be the successful divide and conquer tactics that have been employed by Angelo Massone who seems to blame equally the Trust and the Press for all of Livi's woes. I have just come back from today's Supporter's Direct conference and strangely a number of other Trusts have mentioned that many of their own fans look on them with suspicion. It seems that it is not just at Livingston that fans prefer the sugar daddy approach. My hunch is that a growing number of Livi fans are sick of the false promises of these types and may be ready to accept another way. I certainly hope so!

[LLD]

LLD, no quibbles with any of that. When you have real ownership in something, you find pride and a sense of worth in so many ways that can be difficult to envisage prior to the event. I bet you anything you like that the people deeply involved in an EoS Gretna are far happier than they were when they sat back and watched them shoot up through the leagues on the back of the deceased chap's cash. I think there are many supporters of many clubs who will never experience the buzz of that kind of involvement.

I'm struggling to grasp what it is about Livingston's Trust that has made them a subject of such vilification. Is it simply a personality thing, or is it propoganda or just bad PR? On the single fundamental premis alone that the members of a Trust run club cannot screw over the club for personal financial gain, what is it that is causing such resentment?

I agree that running your club or being part of an organisation that does must be hugely rewarding. I went along to see the Junior Cup final last week and the Clydebank guys who built their club from nothing must have been bursting with pride to see almost 4000 punters turn out to back the team.

On the Trust vilification, my feeling is that the Trust probably isn't distrusted or disliked by many Livingston supporters, but there is a vociferous minority who seem to want to put the boot, particularly on Livilions.

I don't understand why. If they disagree with what the Trust is doing fair enough, but none of the detractors seems keen to do anything constructive to assist, or to engage with the Trust board.

There is one chap who is running a one man campaign to have the Business Plan published on the internet (which won't happen for obvious reasons) yet he won't take up any of the opportunities which are available to look at it in a controlled way.

At the end of the day the best thing anyone can do is join and then have their say in a democratic way. I joined the Trust board as a co-optee recently but I'll admit to being quite critical of the Trust in the past.

The current situation at LFC made me want to do something pro-active, not for power or to massage my ego but to see if I could contribute to something which might mean there is a team for me and my wee laddie to watch for the rest of our lives.

It's about time that people realised that it's wanting to see the club survive that is behind the decision to put a Plan together. No matter what anyone says there are no ulterior motives and no motivation to gain personally.

[LLD]

For me it goes back to the very beginning of the "Trust". BrianW was the driving force and had tried to get it going for a year or so before it got started. He was the first chairman but once things settled down the rest of them ganged up on him to force him out. The egos had taken over and the clique has been in place ever since.

He was so sickened by it all that he stopped going to the games. Before that he was a regular home and away and helped with the running of the OL supporter's team too.

I don't know what went on previously, but my experience of actually being involved in the Trust over the last few months is that there is no clique.

As far as the current board goes it probably couldn't be much more diverse in terms of holding differing attitudes and being drawn from different sections of the support. It's got a wide demographic.

To be fair, MCL what I think the real issue for you is probably the 'feud' you have ongoing with two certain members of the Trust board. It's definitely a mutual dislike, and I don't really want to get involved, but I hope that it doesn't ever come to a situation where the Trust has the chance to save the club and fails through a lack of support from supporters like you.

With the club in the shit, personal stuff should be put to one side for the greater good, in my opinion.

[Chuckinho]

AM seems to be crawling from one buffet to the next, whilst crying for pity.

Perhaps heading into the EoS is the litmus test of Livi as a club. AS has been said, when you have ownership and feel that your opinion counts, you are more likely to be motivated to see it suceeds. ATM, I can't see why AM should eb allowed to hang around.

for mine, the lack of accounting transperancy - the fact that noone knows how much money AM has put in, is an absolute fooking joke. Perhaps the SFL should put Livi into some sort of assisted administration. Not that they would pay for Livis misdeeds, but that they would go in an get the club running within its means in a proper way. If the club can't run, then it should be wound up. Any folk with cash to put in will no doubt wait for adminsitration - why would you put up with that level of debt. This brings another issue, is it morally ethical for a benefactor to allow a club to go into Administration before taking over. By alienating the council and fans in this way, any revamped Livi club which doesn't invovle the fans would be an absoluite PR coup. Anyone who coems in should live AM suggest we will win the Champions LEague etc, I think Livi fans need some reality and realistic goals based on proper oprating prinicples in Football Club Administration

As for old Firm connections, I too think it is inevitable that two big clubs in Glasgow which have cycled through many players, coaches, managers etc, should not pop up at other clubs. In many places, having someone turn up from a bigger club would be applauded, though this seems a wee bit tainted in Scotland for various reasons. I'm more concerned about where such folk could take my club than where they have come from.

Edited June 7, 2009 by Chuckinho

[Guest]

It all seems to be boiling down to the "size of the prize" for the Italian one, with maybe three scenarios open to him.

1) Get as much money as possible for Leigh Griffiths and divert those funds away from the club and scarper asap. This is probably contingent on the offer being greater than quarter of a million. If the growing belief that his assertion of having put half a million of his own dosh into the club (rather hard to see how, given half a million on top of the clubs own income plus the increased debt should have seen the club with easily the biggest spend in the first division) is tosh, then a quick 250k profit on the back of zero investment might well be enough to see him leave the scene of the crime. The club would probably then lurch into administration at best or liquidation at worst. There would be zero assets and a mountain of debt.

2) He genuinely wants to make a go of it, and reckons he can claw back money from PF and sell Griffiths for a whole bunch of cash in order to settle the debts. Only problem for me is that I struggle to see his commitment to a wee West Lothian football club to the extent that a big influx of cash would have a preferred destination other than his back pocket.

3) Getting hold of the stadium for buttons. This is contingent on him being able to sweet talk a council into not realizing anything like the true value of the stadium, and giving it to Massone with no strings attached. At that point, the stadium in its current guise would be for the chop. The council's somewhat limp wristed assertion that he could get rid of the stadium for development if he builds another one elsewhere (then shre the profits) might be a very light shade of green light that makes him think there's money to be had if he can build a 2,500 capacity monstrosity in the sticks for a million or so, and then sell the stadium plot for three or four million. There's the inconvenience of rising debt coming out of this pot that he will not be keen to settle.

I'm struggling to build a (believable) scenario where the man's actions up to now (players not being paid, Hegarty's suspension, overdue rent, suppliers not yet paid, townhouse in Edinburgh) indicate anything other than a chap out to make a quick buck and indulge in a nice lifestyle on the back of a club that seems to be holed beneath the waterline. I've seen nothing that says this is someone who's intentions are wholly aligned with what is best for Livingston football club.Hell, I'm not even convinced that they are partially aligned.

Edited June 7, 2009 by Guest

[Yoss]

(rather hard to see how, given half a million on top of the clubs own income plus the increased debt should have seen the club with easily the biggest spend in the first division)

Isn't the increased debt and the money he's put in the same thing though? Even Abramovich puts his money into Chelsea in the form of "loans", I think it's beneficial for tax reasons to do it that way even if you do actually intend to sink it into the club and never expect to see it again.

Personally I credit his motivations a little better. Sure, he thought he could do well out of it himself ulmitately, but I imagine he thought it could be mutually beneficial and that he could make it work for the club too. And probably still does, in spite of everything.

[Chuckinho]

I think he must be deluded if he thinks he can make a go of it by insisting everyone else bails him out

[Yoss]

Deluded, absolutely. No arguments from me on that score.

[RedV]

Personally I credit his motivations a little better. Sure, he thought he could do well out of it himself ulmitately, but I imagine he thought it could be mutually beneficial and that he could make it work for the club too. And probably still does, in spite of everything.

Actually, I'm starting to think this may well be the case. As bizarre as it may sounds, I'm not convinced he's there to just drain as much cash out of Livi as possible. If that were the case, would he come on to a fans' forum, pished, and continually plead his case? That doesn't really square with me.

He seems more and more desperate, and he's clearly utterly out of his depth, but to me it seems increasingly like he's been driven by an ego the size of Jupiter rather than the opportunity to make a financial killing. He knows it's fucked and the panic's set in now, but perhaps a desire to swan around in a foreign country acting the benevolent Big Man and living it up in luxury accommodation in Edinburgh has been his motivation rather than sheer greed?

Livi are his "Rich Man's Plaything". Pity he's not rich.

[Guest]

Isn't the increased debt and the money he's put in the same thing though? Even Abramovich puts his money into Chelsea in the form of "loans", I think it's beneficial for tax reasons to do it that way even if you do actually intend to sink it into the club and never expect to see it again.

Personally I credit his motivations a little better. Sure, he thought he could do well out of it himself ulmitately, but I imagine he thought it could be mutually beneficial and that he could make it work for the club too. And probably still does, in spite of everything.

Since he is wholly unwilling to come clean on where the money has gone (he quotes a sum of half a million yet has failed to show where it is on the balance sheet), then it's a pretty safe bet that it's another of his grossly misleading claims.

Everything to date has pointed at the man being a complete chancer.

[fabcab]

Will be interesting too see what happens if this deal goes through, where will the money end up ???

http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/sport-news/sco...78057-21421933/

[ObserverFromAfar]

IF it occurs (highly unlikely) it would interesting to find out where the money starts too! Where it ends will be just as intriguing.

Whilst sums of £250k may be mentioned, and speculated upon, and promoted to talk up the price, the chances are that this will be a maximum capped price with so many caveats, that the deal will be constructed so that Livi will have little chance of ever seeing that amount of money ever, let alone by mid-week.

His agent, Darren Jackson I believe, will make sure that no deal is rushed into for the sake of it. NO need to rush the deal for the player's sake. What can be saved in a transfer fee between clubs can be paid as a signing on fee to a player.

[Guest lost]

Back in Court on Thursday

http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/rolls/sheriff...n/lin090611.htm

Versus HPJ Gately Wareing whoever they may be, sound like solicitors though so they be just representing someone else.

[Guest penelope pitstop]

Back in Court on Thursday

http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/rolls/sheriff...n/lin090611.htm

Versus HPJ Gately Wareing whoever they may be, sound like solicitors though so they be just representing someone else.

They are solicitors. You cannot sue someone representing someone else so it is them suing on their own account. I would imagine that he has failed to pay them for legal work done on behalf of the club - could be any number of the minor claims before he stopped bothering to defend them, could be for advice on the purchase of the club or the Litigation against Pearce Flynn or any of his minor "local difficulties" in the criminal court which he may have decided the club would pay for rather than him, or advice on commercial work with regard to the property side of matters, or acting for him on the repossession proceedings in respect of the Edinburgh town house or this case against Flynn that is allegedly coming up on 12th June or even employment advice relating to the sacking of Landi or the "suspension " of Hegarty and Graeme whatishianame the youth coach.

He has to owe a lot of solicitors a lot of money by now - he's in court more often than Roger Federer. Or to be more precise Livi must owe a lot of money.

Edited June 9, 2009 by penelope pitstop

[nick cash]

are they not dead yet, when is the next D day for Livi, why cant the good people of Livingston just get a posse of people with pitch forks and blunt bits of wood and run him out of town, he is dragging their club and the reputation of the town through the pishy gutter, he is a fool, but not as big as fool as those who believed his bullshit

[eksaint]

Selling corsa 1.0L 12v, 62000 miles, w reg 2000

colour is burgandy/red, car is in perfect working order and just before i got it a few months ago had a full engine clean by a trained mechanic. no tax or mot but something can be sorted out.

pm me for more details or offer

now down to £650

[ObserverFromAfar]

More blurring of identities at Livingston... latest idea is a a "Business Trust Board"

http://www.livingstonfc.co.uk/news_100609_1.php. The livi website proclaims:

"Due to interest shown from various sources in the business community of West Lothian,Livingston Football Club would like to propose the forming of a new

“Business Trust Board”

The success of LFC depends on having a variety of individuals who can contribute in different ways and share the desire to see our Club reach new heights.

Candidates for the “Business Trust Board” would be selected from the list of top sponsors of the Club and invited to become members

They would act as official representatives of the Club and would also be invited to review the overall performance of the Club including the financial resources.

Monthly Board Meetings will also be expected."

Now, to the uneducated observer such as myself, the naming causes direct confusion with the fan's "Trust" board, and sounds like a bizarre concept of the owners' favourite sponsors being invited to apply to be on this so called board to run their eye's over the "books" and provide input on where things could be done better - e.g. maybe pay bills on time, pay wages on time, don't spend money you don't have, oh dear the cash flow position isn't too good - why not have some buckets at reception to get some money in, why not move to a smaller house etc etc.

Does anyone remeber the Troubleshooter series on BBC in the early 90's with the late Sir John Harvey Jones, where he went round in his volvo estate to some toubled businesses and invariably told the owners/cheif executives "You are doing what... ha ha ha", recommended they or their managers had to go to give the business a chance to survive? Don't know what he would make of this lot.

[KingfaetheSooth]

More blurring of identities at Livingston... latest idea is a a "Business Trust Board"

http://www.livingstonfc.co.uk/news_100609_1.php. The livi website proclaims:

"Due to interest shown from various sources in the business community of West Lothian,Livingston Football Club would like to propose the forming of a new

“Business Trust Board”

The success of LFC depends on having a variety of individuals who can contribute in different ways and share the desire to see our Club reach new heights.

Candidates for the “Business Trust Board” would be selected from the list of top sponsors of the Club and invited to become members

They would act as official representatives of the Club and would also be invited to review the overall performance of the Club including the financial resources.

Monthly Board Meetings will also be expected."

This latest thing is fucking bonkers.

"Monthly board Meetings will also be expected" What the f**k?!

Anyhoo, what happened to old pasta face when he went before the Beak?

[jimbo]

More blurring of identities at Livingston... latest idea is a a "Business Trust Board"

Now, to the uneducated observer such as myself, the naming causes direct confusion with the fan's "Trust" board,

You are surely not suggesting that this was done deliberately now!