Livingston - all the threads merged

[EdinburghLivi]

On 10/12/2023 at 15:19, BukyOHare said:

While agreeing wholeheartedly with you on all of this, let's not forget how inherently unfair the Premiership playoff structure is in favour of the Premiership teams. Something that could yet save your team in just a few months. People in glass houses maybe?

Hopefully your board will be in a position to lobby for a fairer change.

Perhaps not.

They argued for a 14 team league with up to 3 relegation spots when Hearts went down. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52365881

[Dav nan Gael]

Martindale in the papers this morning complaining about the boardroom battle in the background regarding Hogarth vs Ward .

The Mcllvogue takeover on the back burner.........seems like bad management by LFC that they announced a takeover that legally couldn't take place as yet .

[Livi La Vida Loca]

23 minutes ago, Dav nan Gael said:

Martindale in the papers this morning complaining about the boardroom battle in the background regarding Hogarth vs Ward .

The Mcllvogue takeover on the back burner.........seems like bad management by LFC that they announced a takeover that legally couldn't take place as yet .

Given all the known disputes it did seem odd to announce the takeover as a done deal. A simple caveat saying it was pending approval would have been sufficient. 

As for Martindale, while the boardroom battle will be distracting it should really have little to no impact on him managing the team. Our issues come from his setup, selection and mindset all of which were poor even before the proposed takeover.

You could argue that he'll be unsure of his transfer plans in the coming window but I'd say that's the same every window due to our budget. 

[LIVIFOREVER]

Until we get rid of Hogarth and Rankine this is just going to be an ongoing clusterfuck, those two are going to keep being a thorn in the club's side.

[Roger the cabin boy]

2 hours ago, Livi La Vida Loca said:

As for Martindale, while the boardroom battle will be distracting it should really have little to no impact on him managing the team. Our issues come from his setup, selection and mindset all of which were poor even before the proposed takeover.

Regarding transfer plans, it was some time ago this year (maybe before or right after the Baycup news?) where Martindale says he has his budget for the year made up. Whether or not this includes any money for transfers is another thing, but you’d think (hope) the transfer window would be taken into account.

 

31 minutes ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

Until we get rid of Hogarth and Rankine this is just going to be an ongoing clusterfuck, those two are going to keep being a thorn in the club's side.

If rankine wins his case it will be *very* bad news for the club, best case is some sort of agreed settlement that isn’t the full ticket. Even then there’s the cost of reaching that point

The mounting court costs are something we haven’t read much of in the papers … Livingston took Hogarth to the commercial court, wasted months and tens of thousands of pounds (of the club’s money)just to lose and have their case thrown out by the judge. The club as a result has to pay a significant portion of Hogarth’s court fees - so whatever livi has spent, just double it (six figs easily)
 

There’s a lack of accountability upstairs. We have a transfer window coming up, we’re bottom of the table, and we’re now at least six figures deep into court costs … how many strikers could be bought with this wasted money? At least two players’ salaries I’d wager.

 

And yeah, Rankine is taking *us* to court, so money spent on that can’t be avoided. If the result goes against livi, and Rankine wins, there has to be some accountability there? 

 

 

[Livi]

Martindale acts as if he is nothing to do with it all. Yet seems like he is in the middle of it all . Only on Sat afternoon on a club video said he was the "club leader".  He needs to be honest with the fans. He was served with court papers last week - an ordinary football manager doesn't get that if they are not involved in court or ownership cases.

 

Livingston FC was sold for £400,000 yet St Johnstone was up for sale for £10m with maybe a 1,000 more supporters than Livi? Falkirk sold around 20% stake for £375,000 (whilst losing £400k) and if the rumours are true Dumbarton sold for £1.5m. Maybe the Hogarth action has done Livi a favour as this mob may have took the club and pocketed more money by flogging it on.   
 

Why would Ward & Martindale and anyone else involved  sell Livi FC for £400,000 to one guy who has appeared from nowhere and  on the face of it all  does not have the funds to invest in an SPFL club. Why not work with the shareholders and do the best for Livi ? I am sure if they moved aside and found new investors (proper ones) everyone could win here including Livi FC. 
 

They seem very frightened to let go so is there something being hidden?  
 

If Rankine wins his case where do Ward & Martindale and anyone else involved go from there. If seems like they are taking Livi FC down a dead end where there might not be a return. 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Livi

[Freedom Farter]

1 hour ago, Livi said:

Martindale acts as if he is nothing to do with it all. Yet seems like he is in the middle of it all . Only on Sat afternoon on a club video said he was the "club leader".  He needs to be honest with the fans. He was served with court papers last week - an ordinary football manager doesn't get that if they are not involved in court or ownership cases.

 

Livingston FC was sold for £400,000 yet St Johnstone was up for sale for £10m with maybe a 1,000 more supporters than Livi? Falkirk sold around 20% stake for £375,000 (whilst losing £400k) and if the rumours are true Dumbarton sold for £1.5m. Maybe the Hogarth action has done Livi a favour as this mob may have took the club and pocketed more money by flogging it on.   
 

Why would Ward & Martindale and anyone else involved  sell Livi FC for £400,000 to one guy who has appeared from nowhere and  on the face of it all  does not have the funds to invest in an SPFL club. Why not work with the shareholders and do the best for Livi ? I am sure if they moved aside and found new investors (proper ones) everyone could win here including Livi FC. 
 

They seem very frightened to let go so is there something being hidden?  
 

If Rankine wins his case where do Ward & Martindale and anyone else involved go from there. If seems like they are taking Livi FC down a dead end where there might not be a return. 

You're a compromised arsehole clearly spreading shite on behalf of Neil Hogarth.

[Livi]

1 minute ago, Freedom Farter said:

You're a compromised arsehole clearly spreading shite on behalf of Neil Hogarth.

I don't need to compromised by anyone especially Hogarth. 
 

I would love the full deck to be cleared at Livi FC.

I have rattled on for a long time that Livi  FC seems to be a toy for the people who want to own / run / be part of it.

[Freedom Farter]

55 minutes ago, Livi said:

I don't need to compromised by anyone especially Hogarth. 
 

I would love the full deck to be cleared at Livi FC.

I have rattled on for a long time that Livi  FC seems to be a toy for the people who want to own / run / be part of it.

You claimed Hogarth was "framed" (you used that word) with his arrest for fraud. 

So your claim is that Ward and Martindale stole loads of money from the club then framed Hogarth for it?

But you're not in any way associated with Neil Hogarth. You're just a random Livi fan who knows an honest man when he sees one.

[Freedom Farter]

@Roger the cabin boyJoin in, ya p***k, don't just snipe from the sidelines. Back up your pal on this. 

Do you have any evidence of the conspiracy?

We all want what's best for the club here, not what's best for Neil Hogarth's bank account.

[Livi]

18 minutes ago, Freedom Farter said:

You claimed Hogarth was "framed" (you used that word) with his arrest for fraud. 

So your claim is that Ward and Martindale stole loads of money from the club then framed Hogarth for it?

But you're not in any way associated with Neil Hogarth. You're just a random Livi fan who knows an honest man when he sees one.

Hahah you the random Livi fan seem rattled.

Just for the record I haven't said at any time anyone has stole money  - thats your words not mine.

i answered the framed accusation you have made previously - Just so i spell it out for you i do not have any owner loyalty to any current director or shareholder either now or any of the past ones either. 

I'll reiterate I am rattled for a long time that Livi FC seems to be a toy for the people who want to own/run/be part of it .

 

i would rather Ward and Martindale bail out and move on. No hid that fact

 

[Freedom Farter]

On 10/11/2023 at 17:19, Livi said:

No sure he quit - he was framed

[Roger the cabin boy]

6 minutes ago, Freedom Farter said:

@Roger the cabin boyJoin in, ya p***k, don't just snipe from the sidelines. Back up your pal on this. 

Do you have any evidence of the conspiracy?

We all want what's best for the club here, not what's best for Neil Hogarth's bank account.

And I thought I was the antagonistic one… What I’ve said concerns the clubs funds and how they’re being spent. It’s no secret that livi is pissing money away in courts. We’re desperate for players!!

I don’t know what else you want me to add? Considering you act so defensively on behalf of people who are clearly running the club to ruin behind the scenes, I don’t think you really do want what’s best for the club.
 

It’s mental you can say that, when, as time has gone on, those in charge are increasingly seen to be doing the *opposite* of what’s best for the club.
 

If the Mcilvogue sale wasn’t blocked, we still wouldn’t have the investment upstairs promised to secure.

 

@Livi, ignore this twit. He’s clogging the chat up with his paranoid ramblings. Any criticism you have of the club, about upstairs specifically, is met with bile.

 

 

[Freedom Farter]

1 hour ago, Roger the cabin boy said:

And I thought I was the antagonistic one… What I’ve said concerns the clubs funds and how they’re being spent. It’s no secret that livi is pissing money away in courts. We’re desperate for players!!

I don’t know what else you want me to add? Considering you act so defensively on behalf of people who are clearly running the club to ruin behind the scenes, I don’t think you really do want what’s best for the club.
 

It’s mental you can say that, when, as time has gone on, those in charge are increasingly seen to be doing the *opposite* of what’s best for the club.
 

If the Mcilvogue sale wasn’t blocked, we still wouldn’t have the investment upstairs promised to secure.

 

@Livi, ignore this twit. He’s clogging the chat up with his paranoid ramblings. Any criticism you have of the club, about upstairs specifically, is met with bile.

 

 

I'm perfectly open to Martindale and Ward being driven out the club by genuine Livi fans who believe that's best for our club, if or when that becomes majority opinion.

However, I'm vigilant against individuals who are not genuine Livi fans and have a very different agenda trying to encourage calls for it. 

Edit: It's not questioning the board that's annoying. Curiosity and scepticism over how your club is being run should be the default disposition of every fan. What's annoying is when folk are constantly coy with what they comment rather than straightforward. Also annoying is when they make a claim then get offended when asked to back it up. Yet more annoying is when they insist they never even made the claim when its sitting there still able to be read. Behaving like that will naturally lead to assumptions of bad faith.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Freedom Farter

[Livi]

1 hour ago, Freedom Farter said:

On 10/11/2023 at 17:19, Livi said:

No sure he quit - he was framed

On 27/11/2023 at 13:58, Livi said:

My point was he didn't walk away of his own accord. 

there you go Mr Livi 

[Roger the cabin boy]

1 hour ago, Freedom Farter said:

It's not questioning the board that's annoying. Curiosity and scepticism over how your club is being run should be the default disposition of every fan. What's annoying is when folk are constantly coy with what they comment rather than straightforward. Also annoying is when they make a claim then get offended when asked to back it up. Yet more annoying is when they insist they never even made the claim when it’s sitting there still able to be read. Behaving like that will naturally lead to assumptions of bad faith.

Skepticism of how the club is run doesn’t seem to be your default. 
 

what I’ve said regarding my first post on this page- they’re irrefutable points, but I don’t want to repeat myself about the club and the court cases.

Regarding what livi has said, here’s a screenshot from a gov.scot page on the falkirk fanbank used to buy shares (see attached). Of the Dumbarton figure, I don’t know the verity.

Some response from you though, acting like you came here in reasonable manner. 

1 hour ago, Freedom Farter said:

However, I'm vigilant against individuals who are not genuine Livi fans and have a very different agenda trying to encourage calls for it

No true livi fan.

 

edit:  looking up Falkirk on companies house just for fun. You can see an increase in shares between statements from August and June this year:

2,274,741.8/1,919,676.8 = 1.185 

18.5 percent increase in share capital. So if the fans bought at least 875,000 shares (at 40 or 50p), that equates to a stake of *at least* 15 percent.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Roger the cabin boy

[Dav nan Gael]

Without taking sides in this ongoing P&B battle for LFC's soul .

How/what was Hogarth and Rankine's claims whatever they may be on the proposed LFC takeover and how were they apparently dismissed by Ward and Co when they announced Mcllvogue was taking over.

I feel the club has been very covert in what is happening at boardroom level. 

Martindale has broke ground today on a good bit of it,but more needs brought to light 

[ATLIS]

The rewriting of history here, trying to make Hogarth into the good guy is laughable. If there's valid concerns over the running of the club, fair enough, but to try make Hogarth out to be blameless is wrong. He's sitting here in the way of change for the club as it stands.

Not from me, but through someone who knows someone who knows something: Hogarth took money out of the club's accounts to keep his businesses afloat during COVID without running it past other people at the club. He stole money from the club (on a promise to himself to pay it back) and it was shown up through forensic accountants running over the books. Regardless of the situation, there is fault on his side.

We need more transparency from the club about what's happening though, if papers are being served and court cases are being thrown around then surely the fans should be made aware.

[Roger the cabin boy]

8 hours ago, ATLIS said:

The rewriting of history here, trying to make Hogarth into the good guy is laughable. If there's valid concerns over the running of the club, fair enough, but to try make Hogarth out to be blameless is wrong. He's sitting here in the way of change for the club as it stands.

Not from me, but through someone who knows someone who knows something: Hogarth took money out of the club's accounts to keep his businesses afloat during COVID without running it past other people at the club. He stole money from the club (on a promise to himself to pay it back) and it was shown up through forensic accountants running over the books. Regardless of the situation, there is fault on his side.

We need more transparency from the club about what's happening though, if papers are being served and court cases are being thrown around then surely the fans should be made aware.

I don’t think it’s fair for anyone critical of the club to need all these sources and evidence when you can say something as damning as what you’ve said with no evidence other than “I know someone, trust me bro.”

Either cite your source or hush. And before you do, please spare us “someone from the club.”

What I must say is, from the way you’ve described it, is that those forensic accountants would’ve been very useful in the court case against Hogarth, though, in Lord Braid’s Opinion they’re mentioned nowhere at all. If it was shown by forensic accountants nearly two years ago, it’s been an awful long time for Hogarth to walk the streets as a free man. The wheels of justice are notoriously slow, but if a crime has been so blatantly committed and proven as you say, something ought to have been done by now, no? 
 

If there is anyone rewriting history it’s you.
 

At the end of the day, although I don’t know the specifics of the recent petition to the court @Dav nan Gael , the crux of it is that Ward and co are selling a share of Hogarth’s business without his consent, to someone who has publicly stated they’re not investing any money. Hogarth’s been a shareholder since league 1 and I have it on good authority that he paid wages for staff and players at that time when Gordon McDougall had the club by the throat (ask John Ward). With the court’s blessing, McDougall froze any monies coming into the club that could be used for the purpose of paying staff and players. 

If Rankine wins his case and is due his 6 or even 7 figures, would those in charge currently do the same when funds are frozen? Time will tell, though I wouldn’t hold your breath as no money has been parted from them (but they’re more than happy to use the club’s money to fund hopeless campaigns in the commercial court).

Finally, If Hogarth is sitting in the way of any sort of change, it’s the kind of change that only benefits John Ward and David Martindale. 
 

It’s no coincidence that not long after Livi entered the premiership and premiership money started pouring into the club, that all this drama started with league 1 era shareholders being removed from positions of power by people who haven’t spent a penny. Oh and now these new people who haven’t spent a penny want to sell the shareholders’ business on the cheap… whilst keeping their roles at the club under new ownership. 
 

We DO need transparency, and I’m glad you and I can at least agree on that.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Roger the cabin boy
A word

[Livi La Vida Loca]

2 hours ago, Roger the cabin boy said:

Either cite your source or hush.

 

2 hours ago, Roger the cabin boy said:

I have it on good authority

Pot kettle black ? I really do not want to be involved in this debate but c'mon now. 

The club undoubtedly has off field issues that none of us know or understand the full extent of however just because we aren't all talking about it doesn't mean there isn't any concern it's more that we simply don't have all the information to have an informed conversation or opinion.

How about we discuss issues when there is clear information out there rather than the continuous rumour mill and fear mongering. Or at least set up another thread entitled 'Livi is doomed financially' because this back and forth without the full picture is boring and tiresome.