Livingston - all the threads merged

[Roger the cabin boy]

11 minutes ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

See my above posts, you add a slant onto something for a purpose, which just isn't true. You're clearly on here to cause unrest within our support, against Ward, Black,  and Martindale.

Let’s see how this pans out over the coming months then :) 

Eventually we’ll find out the whole story I’m sure. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Roger the cabin boy

[BukyOHare]

On 12/12/2023 at 00:22, EdinburghLivi said:

They argued for a 14 team league with up to 3 relegation spots when Hearts went down. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52365881

That's fair enough, I wasn't aware of that at all but it was 3 years ago and we're still having the same conversations.

The fact that it requires 11 of 12 teams to vote something like that through just emphasises the point that it's a closed shop and nothing more. How is that conducive to a positive, thriving league system?

I've often thought the hard part is getting promoted out of the Championship, is staying in the top league comparably easier with the relative increase in prize money? You guys would be more qualified to answer that one. 

Genuinely interested in finding opinions on that one.

[Livi La Vida Loca]

5 minutes ago, Roger the cabin boy said:

They shouldn’t be using the club’s money to pursue a court case in the first place. 
 

Who's money should be used? 

The court case was brought about as it was alleged he took money from the club. 

[Roger the cabin boy]

1 minute ago, Livi La Vida Loca said:

Who's money should be used? 

The court case was brought about as it was alleged he took money from the club. 

The parent company, and failing that, the directors’ own. 

[Livi]

I am unsure why Ward (& Martindale) has so much credit with the Livi support.

Ward will oversee £400,000 of losses this season. Thats not the fault of Covid. This is in the backdrop of the lowest budget, very low FT staff count. This year there will be easily £3m plus coming into the club.

why would the courier not try and speak to Hogarth, Sumner or even Rankine?

Ps Burskin's should never ever have been at Livi.

[Roger the cabin boy]

5 minutes ago, Livi said:

why would the courier not try and speak to Hogarth, Sumner or even Rankine?

Better yet, what’s Mcilvogue to say about all that is going on?

[Dav nan Gael]

14 hours ago, Roger the cabin boy said:

Better yet, what’s Mcilvogue to say about all that is going on?

This i 100% do concur with,obviously something is amiss,as Mcilvogue hasn't said boo to a goose since the alleged takeover. 

[LIVIFOREVER]

26 minutes ago, Dav nan Gael said:

This i 100% do concur with,obviously something is amiss,as Mcilvogue hasn't said boo to a goose since the alleged takeover. 

Apart from when we handed out free hot drinks one game, i don't think he's made a comment on anything since.

[LIVIFOREVER]

15 hours ago, Livi said:

I am unsure why Ward (& Martindale) has so much credit with the Livi support.

Ward will oversee £400,000 of losses this season. Thats not the fault of Covid. This is in the backdrop of the lowest budget, very low FT staff count. This year there will be easily £3m plus coming into the club.

why would the courier not try and speak to Hogarth, Sumner or even Rankine?

Ps Burskin's should never ever have been at Livi.

You couldn't have been supporting Livi before they both got involved then, otherwise it's fairly obvious why Livi fans hold them in such high regard.

Far as i know, Beurskens was consulted for advice on dealing with Bureaucracy, when we were dealing with signing foreign players, he wasn't employed at Livi.

Edited December 14, 2023 by LIVIFOREVER

[LIVIFOREVER]

20 hours ago, BukyOHare said:

That's fair enough, I wasn't aware of that at all but it was 3 years ago and we're still having the same conversations.

The fact that it requires 11 of 12 teams to vote something like that through just emphasises the point that it's a closed shop and nothing more. How is that conducive to a positive, thriving league system?

I've often thought the hard part is getting promoted out of the Championship, is staying in the top league comparably easier with the relative increase in prize money? You guys would be more qualified to answer that one. 

Genuinely interested in finding opinions on that one.

The increase of prize money helps get better players, but then you're paying higher wages and employing more off field staff, so swings and roundabouts on that score. The more established teams have more money than us too, so we're still having to punch above our weight to stay up, and it helps if there are a couple of teams punching well below their weight. Maybe a team with a much bigger support than us would find it a bit more of a level playing field financially, but then Dundee Utd and Dundee have been up and down several times recently.

Not looking good for us this season, after 5 comfortable seasons staying away from the bottom 2 spots, looks like our smaller playing budget has finally caught up with us.

[Roger the cabin boy]

22 minutes ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

You couldn't have been supporting Livi before they both got involved then, otherwise it's fairly obvious why Livi fans hold them in such high regard.

Martindale I can understand, but why is it ‘fairly obvious’ to hold Ward in high regard when we were profitable before his return. In covid they were profitable too to be fair, but then after that it’s been nothing but losses and controversy. 

[Freedom Farter]

I agree with J Domingo. It was all going well until Ward returned and started putting the squeeze on Hogarth. 

[Roger the cabin boy]

11 minutes ago, Freedom Farter said:

I agree with J Domingo. It was all going well until Ward returned and started putting the squeeze on Hogarth. 

Lol.

In fact, after Hogarth took his own money back from the club, John Ward voted *against* kicking him off the board. 

[Roger the cabin boy]

I was also at the AGM when Ward said he couldn’t wait to get Hogarth into court. Life comes at you fast doesn’t it? 

[LIVIFOREVER]

21 hours ago, Roger the cabin boy said:

They shouldn’t be using the club’s money to pursue a court case in the first place. 
 

I sincerely doubt that the court case was factored into the budget considering they probably weren’t planning on losing and paying the defendant’s fees. They had no idea the length of time they would be in front of the judge before a trial date could even have been decided.  Then there’s the cost of a trial… you don’t budget for a court case - you have a war chest.

If you believe what I’m replying to, it seems that no matter what I say, you use whatever mental gymnastics necessary to believe that those behind the club must be in the right. 

Don't need any mental gymnastics to see where you're coming from.

I don't believe those running the club are always right either, but they've done plenty to give them a bit of leeway when they get it wrong, it is never going to be easy running Livingston, esp when there always seems to be internal battles going on, between previous incumbents and present. Nobody is ever pulling in the one direction, in spite of all that we're playing top flight football, for now anyway. 

[Roger the cabin boy]

5 minutes ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

but they've done plenty to give them a bit of leeway when they get it wrong

How will they right the wrong of their failures in the court? A significant portion of their case initially hinged on them coming after Hogarth… for bringing the club’s debt owed to Gordon McDougall down from 700k, to less than 130K… as if somehow that was to the detriment of the club In league 1?

Livingston in league 1 would be finished if they had to pay McDougall what he was owed. 

Their counsel promptly dropped that last minute though - so as not to tarnish his own reputation, I imagine. 

[LIVIFOREVER]

56 minutes ago, Roger the cabin boy said:

Martindale I can understand, but why is it ‘fairly obvious’ to hold Ward in high regard when we were profitable before his return. In covid they were profitable too to be fair, but then after that it’s been nothing but losses and controversy. 

Ward was a big part of us being promoted in the first place, then the work he did getting us looking like a top flight club, the stadium was needing a lot of work done to get it fully operational for away supporters to get into the North stand, passing fire code regulations etc. Martindale has helped with that too, doing work inside the stadium. Martindale also holds Ward in high regard, and he sees a lot more than us fans, what work Ward has done at Livi. 

Covid wouldn't have hit finances properly till the following season, then there's a knock on effect trying to recover, plus the rise in utility bills to factor in. Rankine and Summers date back to the Livi 5 era, we also had Nixon chasing his director loan, but he's been paid back.

[LIVIFOREVER]

5 minutes ago, Roger the cabin boy said:

How will they right the wrong of their failures in the court? A significant portion of their case initially hinged on them coming after Hogarth… for bringing the club’s debt owed to Gordon McDougall down from 700k, to less than 130K… as if somehow that was to the detriment of the club In league 1?

Livingston in league 1 would be finished if they had to pay McDougall what he was owed. 

Their counsel promptly dropped that last minute though - so as not to tarnish his own reputation, I imagine. 

Winning it next time and recouping the money they said Hogarth took?

 

[Roger the cabin boy]

7 minutes ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

Winning it next time and recouping the money they said Hogarth took?

 

Aye we’ve no money for players but let’s gamble on another court case we’d lose.

[The Wrong Car]

Aye, it's hard to see why most folk hold goodwill to Martindale and Ward (two key figures in our double promotion) rather than Neil Hogarth (a guy who cut himself checks from the club)

As I said before, it's absolutely fair to question decisions made by the club, and this season has been a shiteshow both on and off the pitch, however re-framing Hogarth as some sort of blameless figure in this is nonsense

McDougall, Rankine, Hogath, Stoker and Ward may have helped save the clubs from the Italian regime, however it's clear there's a lot of bruised egos coming out now