Livingston - all the threads merged

[Durnford]

1 hour ago, Livi said:

You've had a strong support for our manager.

looking at purely his on field performance  (there is alot off it we could discuss)

Here's his stats since we lost to Caley Thistle in the cup;

44 games
6 wins
10 draws
13.6% win rate
28 defeats (28/132 points)
29 scored (0.66 per game)
78 conceded (1.77 per game)
 

not sure any of the above is cutting off our nose. He should have been moved on long ago the credit has ran out.

Not sure "strong support for the manager" has any bearing on it.  

My position is that every manager in any football club seems to have a finite time after which its time to move on. This can be for a variety of reasons, not just performance, but most critical is that when things start to go into meltdown they are incapable of turning things around.

There will be some that argue that we stuck with Hopkins after demotion and he took us right up again but that was different. Hopkin's was only appointed after Burchill left and relegation was clearly on the cards.

I think most would agree that Martindale has performed wonders to even keep us in the Premiership for as long as he has but in my opinion he's clearly the wrong sort of manager to take us back up. His attacking ability has never been his strong point and the current tactic or continually playing it back until finally gets to the goalkeeper who proceeds to boot it out for a throw-in is not the way to get promoted (or even avoid relegation).

Ultimately sure it must be a case of time up, and to be perfectly honest I'm not sure I can take any more of those "its my responsibility" speeches. NSS!

[Livi]

34 minutes ago, Durnford said:

Ultimately sure it must be a case of time up, and to be perfectly honest I'm not sure I can take any more of those "its my responsibility" speeches. NSS!

Even I would acknowledge Martindale done well  in the earlier part of his tenure as manager and possibly before he became manager officially. Results and league positions stack that acknowledgement  up.

Over the last few years i have seen that position slowly decline and the club finds itself in the position it's in today.

I agree any other club would have acted by now.

[Freedom Farter]

2 hours ago, Livi said:

You've had a strong support for our manager.

looking at purely his on field performance  (there is alot off it we could discuss)

Here's his stats since we lost to Caley Thistle in the cup;

44 games
6 wins
10 draws
13.6% win rate
28 defeats (28/132 points)
29 scored (0.66 per game)
78 conceded (1.77 per game)
 

not sure any of the above is cutting off our nose. He should have been moved on long ago the credit has ran out.

Who would you bring in as replacement?

[Durnford]

2 minutes ago, Freedom Farter said:

Who would you bring in as replacement?

I think Brian Rice made it clear he didn't relish the no 1 position. Marvin Bartley seems to have struggled a bit with QOS. There are several others in the championship with Livi connections but would probably opt to stay where they were.

Of course the other question is what is their primary aim assuming we do go down? Are we looking to "Roar back" or consolidate? After all there's no guarantee with more than half the team away that we'll be able to maintain the Championship level comfortably.

[Freedom Farter]

13 minutes ago, Durnford said:

I think Brian Rice made it clear he didn't relish the no 1 position. Marvin Bartley seems to have struggled a bit with QOS. There are several others in the championship with Livi connections but would probably opt to stay where they were.

Of course the other question is what is their primary aim assuming we do go down? Are we looking to "Roar back" or consolidate? After all there's no guarantee with more than half the team away that we'll be able to maintain the Championship level comfortably.

You'd trust John Ward to either pick a good manager himself or to find a good DoF who could then pick a good manager? There's also that we might have Rankine and Hogarth rather than Ward making these choices come the summer.

Edited March 18 by Freedom Farter

[Durnford]

IF we go down I very much doubt we'll be in the financial position to be able to afford a DOF.  I would guess that would be equivalent to 1 or 2 full time players. 

[Freedom Farter]

24 minutes ago, Durnford said:

IF we go down I very much doubt we'll be in the financial position to be able to afford a DOF.  I would guess that would be equivalent to 1 or 2 full time players. 

Somebody on the board always chooses the manager then does the signings in conjunction with that manager. Ward doesn't rate his own knowledge or judgement for this which is why he has always deferred to Martindale. While Ward is unlikely to dismiss him, its possible Martindale could just walk away entirely of his own accord. At that point, I'd expect Ward to bring someone onto the board to make the football decisions.

If Ward is forced out by Rankine and Hogarth then Martindale is gone instantly. I'd expect Rankine and Hogarth would probably bring someone in to make the football decisions as they have no experience at all between them of running the football side.

[Freedom Farter]

5 hours ago, Rogelio el Chico de Cabino said:

Lol

You win again, David.

[ATLIS]

6 hours ago, Livi said:

Ah right because our volunteer chairman puts posts up and deletes them it must all be true.

 

Lets hear both sides then  make a judgement.

 

#fickle 

Let’s hear both sides then. Or is he just going to hide away from it? Here’s his chance, like you’ve asked fans to do. 

Edited March 18 by ATLIS

[Livi]

1 minute ago, ATLIS said:

Let’s hear both sides then. Or is he just going to hide away from it? Here’s his chance, like you’ve asked fans to do. 

Its maybe escaped you but the majority of John Ward tweets from last night have been deleted. Why would he delete them if they are true? 
 

Or is it easy to tweet stuff and then delete it meanwhile people like you take it as gospel? 

Edited March 18 by Livi

[ATLIS]

1 minute ago, Livi said:

It’s maybe escaped you but the majority of John Ward tweets from last night have been deleted. Why would he delete them 

Who knows, possibly just felt like it was getting too much attention or was responding emotionally to criticism - now onto the real point, if Hogarth doesn’t reply to this, his chance to give his side of the story, then why would Livi fans ever listen beyond this?

[Livi]

5 hours ago, Durnford said:

I think Brian Rice made it clear he didn't relish the no 1 position. Marvin Bartley seems to have struggled a bit with QOS. There are several others in the championship with Livi connections but would probably opt to stay where they were.

Of course the other question is what is their primary aim assuming we do go down? Are we looking to "Roar back" or consolidate? After all there's no guarantee with more than half the team away that we'll be able to maintain the Championship level comfortably.

Agree with this. Look at Falkirk for example they were a mess behind the scenes for a good while and have seen a free fall into division 1. I fear Livi can't get upstairs sorted sooner rather than later that could be them.

In terms of who there will be out there then i think there are plenty hungry managers wanting their next move. Look what happened to Ian Murray in and out of football and then Airdrie took a punt and then Raith snapped him up. Lots like Murray out there.

 

It will depend on our affordability and club vision in terms of who we can attract.

Edited March 18 by Livi

[Durnford]

No shortage of clubs that thought they could bounce straight back including Dunfermline; Cally Thistle; Partick; Hamilton and perhaps Dundee United. We also thought the same under Flynn. Although the play offs have made it somewhat more interesting very few championship clubs seem to win promotion that way.

Dundee with significantly more resources than us also found it a bit of a struggle.

With this in mind we really need someone with the staying power to hang around; who has the ability not only to build a new team from scratch but to mould in and keep it together - not try and sell off the best assets in some kind of garage sale every time someone from the media writes a piece about them.

 

[Freedom Farter]

3 hours ago, Livi said:

Agree with this. Look at Falkirk for example they were a mess behind the scenes for a good while and have seen a free fall into division 1. I fear Livi can't get upstairs sorted sooner rather than later that could be them.

In terms of who there will be out there then i think there are plenty hungry managers wanting their next move. Look what happened to Ian Murray in and out of football and then Airdrie took a punt and then Raith snapped him up. Lots like Murray out there.

 

It will depend on our affordability and club vision in terms of who we can attract.

If Rankine - technically Sumner - and Hogarth establish control as a result of these court cases next month, are they looking to remove Ward and appoint a new chairperson? Then for that new chairperson (or new CEO, as I assume they'll remove Black too) to run the football side?

[Freedom Farter]

17 hours ago, Freedom Farter said:

Hogarth is from Livingston and was a Livi fan so he had pals who were Livi fans. Rankine was an outsider but he's now been around for over a decade. Both Rankine and Hogarth are close with the Livi for Life Supporters Trust, including its previous members not just current. The trust has former Meadowbank fans from Edinburgh, folk who've known each other for a long time so are a tight-knit bunch. All this means that Rankine and Hogarth have surrogates embedded within the Livi support and therefore don't need to say anything publicly themselves. They can sit back and let those surrogates do their bidding for them, getting their claims out to the wider Livi support.

Ward is an outsider and a more recent one than Rankine. He doesn't have the connections within the Livi support that Hogarth and Rankine have. That's probably why he feels the need to personally put out his claims himself, via his Twitter account in this case. This seems the more likely explanation than him being an alcoholic.

Ward has access to club media. He's able to put out statements via the club website unlike Rankine and Hogarth. I should've included that. 

[LIVIFOREVER]

7 hours ago, Durnford said:

I think Brian Rice made it clear he didn't relish the no 1 position. Marvin Bartley seems to have struggled a bit with QOS. There are several others in the championship with Livi connections but would probably opt to stay where they were.

Of course the other question is what is their primary aim assuming we do go down? Are we looking to "Roar back" or consolidate? After all there's no guarantee with more than half the team away that we'll be able to maintain the Championship level comfortably.

I doubt we'd be looking to roar back, not unless it's different people in charge next season, with no grasp of Livingston's position. We were unexpectedly promoted, and hadn't set out to be, or prepared structurally for it, and knew it was unlikely we'd stay up, in fact we've exceeded all expectation staying here so long. We haven't the finances or fanbase to even be a top 4 Championship team, but are obv capable of punching above our financial weight. The state the club is in off field, along with us needing a major rebuild assembling a competitive squad, means consolidation is the only realistic goal, then maybe having a stable club and team to be able to compete for a top 4 spot the following season.

It's Livi though so who knows, we may go straight back up, or into freefall to League One. It's a fucking rollercoaster ride supporting Livi. I've still got the ROARING BACK scarf in a drawer from the Flynn era, might get some use out of it yet.

Edited March 18 by LIVIFOREVER

[LIVIFOREVER]

31 minutes ago, Freedom Farter said:

Ward has access to club media. He's able to put out statements via the club website unlike Rankine and Hogarth. I should've included that. 

Hopefully he doesn't get the club announcer to read out a statement on all the club's enemies at HT. That was excruciatingly painful to listen to, even the away fans felt embarrassed for us. 

Edited March 18 by LIVIFOREVER

[Durnford]

8 minutes ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

I doubt we'd be looking to roar back, not unless it's different people in charge next season, with no grasp of Livingston's position. We were unexpectedly promoted, and hadn't set out to be, or prepared structurally for it, and knew it was unlikely we'd stay up, in fact we've exceeded all expectation staying here so long. We haven't the finances or fanbase to even be a top 4 Championship team, but are obv capable of punching above our financial weight. The state the club is in off field, along with us needing a major rebuild assembling a competitive squad, means consolidation is the only realistic goal, then maybe having a stable club and team to be able to compete for a top 4 spot the following season.

It's Livi though so who knows, we may go straight back up, or into freefall to League One. It's a fucking rollercoaster ride supporting Livi. I've still got the ROARING BACK scarf in a drawer from the Flynn era, might get some use out of it yet.

The fanbase numbers worry me probably more than anything else. Killie for example sold over 4000 season tickets this season. In the championship I think eight out of the ten regularly have home crowds that match or exceed our numbers.

In our first season in the SPL our regular home support was between 4 and 5K.

[Durnford]

4 minutes ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

Hopefully he doesn't get the club announcer to read out a statement on all the club's enemies at HT. That was excruciatingly painful to listen to, even the away fans felt embarrassed for us. 

The only think I can generally make out from the west stand speakers is "lets make all the noise" and that's probably only because I know its coming.

[LIVIFOREVER]

2 minutes ago, Durnford said:

The fanbase numbers worry me probably more than anything else. Killie for example sold over 4000 season tickets this season. In the championship I think eight out of the ten regularly have home crowds that match or exceed our numbers.

In our first season in the SPL our regular home support was between 4 and 5K.

We'll get a parachute payment right enough, but everything is going into Court cases.