Livingston - all the threads merged

[Livi]

53 minutes ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

Prob when we sold Dykes, but that was wiped out during covid.

You have a thing about Covid we had a £1.7m covid loan, prize money and did we not get to the final that year too? I don't think it was as bad as you're making it out to be

[LIVIFOREVER]

1 hour ago, Livi said:

You have a thing about Covid we had a £1.7m covid loan, prize money and did we not get to the final that year too? I don't think it was as bad as you're making it out to be

You've got a thing about ignoring covid and making out it had nothing to do with the amount of debt we've got.

It would've been a lot worse if we didn't have the Dykes money, and a cup final prize money, just think how much better off we'd have been had we gate money from back to back top 6 finishes and a cup final though, our most successful spell in the top flight this term, blighted by covid restrictions. All those big gates against the cheeks, we also missed out in a big gate from Hearts fans when they had 8 games to avoid relegation, we had 2 home games still before the split when covid lockdown restriction stopped football.

I'm not believing you don't realize it had a huge impact on our finances, more that you just don't want to acknowledge it because it takes away from the rhetoric of putting everything on Ward.

Ok take just one season with no fans, we finished in the top 6 and missed out in 4 home gates against the cheeks, that brings in 1M+ alone, then we missed out in 2 home games just before the split, one of which was against Hearts, when they were fighting to stay up, another big gate, plus one more erse cheek home game with us having our first top 6 finish the season football was shut down with 8 games to go, then there was still restriction into another season, with a limit put on how many fans could attend games, with spacing and red zones. Also  you can take away to govt loan (which wouldn't have happened with no covid lockdown), you're wiping out almost 3M, and i've not included other gates from the rest of the teams we'd have played during the 3 seasons that covid restriction impacted.

[EdinburghLivi]

On 30/06/2024 at 16:25, Livi said:

Whats been the clubs year on year annual losses / profit from 2019 onwards ? 

2017 - (£149k)

2018 - £46k

2019 - £368k

2020 - Couldn't find.

2021 - Couldn't find.

2022 - (£819k)

2023 - (£462k)

I tried to get the profit/loss for 2020 and 2021 but couldn't find anywhere where these were explicitly stated online. 

Net liabilities decreased from -£659k in 2019 to -£160k in 2020 and again to 259k in 2021 meaning we had net assets for the first time in a long time. That does include conversion of £200k in loans to shares and the paying off of £215k to (I believe) Ged Nixon as part of a £469k loan balance to Livi 5 personnel. 

[Roger the cabin boy]

3 hours ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

Prob when we sold Dykes, but that was wiped out during covid.

[Roger the cabin boy]

1 minute ago, EdinburghLivi said:

I tried to get the profit/loss for 2020 and 2021 but couldn't find anywhere where these were explicitly stated online. 

No figures were quoted but there was a statement from the former club chairman at that time 

[Livi]

1 hour ago, EdinburghLivi said:

2017 - (£149k)

2018 - £46k

2019 - £368k

2020 - Couldn't find.

2021 - Couldn't find.

2022 - (£819k)

2023 - (£462k)

I tried to get the profit/loss for 2020 and 2021 but couldn't find anywhere where these were explicitly stated online. 

Net liabilities decreased from -£659k in 2019 to -£160k in 2020 and again to 259k in 2021 meaning we had net assets for the first time in a long time. That does include conversion of £200k in loans to shares and the paying off of £215k to (I believe) Ged Nixon as part of a £469k loan balance to Livi 5 personnel. 

Thanks - Just the last 2 years alone are bad  enough especially when they were the years the club had the best revenue and they should have been used to reduce our debt not increase it  

Edited July 1 by Livi

[Livi]

2 hours ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

You've got a thing about ignoring covid and making out it had nothing to do with the amount of debt we've got.

It would've been a lot worse if we didn't have the Dykes money, and a cup final prize money, just think how much better off we'd have been had we gate money from back to back top 6 finishes and a cup final though, our most successful spell in the top flight this term, blighted by covid restrictions. All those big gates against the cheeks, we also missed out in a big gate from Hearts fans when they had 8 games to avoid relegation, we had 2 home games still before the split when covid lockdown restriction stopped football.

I'm not believing you don't realize it had a huge impact on our finances, more that you just don't want to acknowledge it because it takes away from the rhetoric of putting everything on Ward.

Ok take just one season with no fans, we finished in the top 6 and missed out in 4 home gates against the cheeks, that brings in 1M+ alone, then we missed out in 2 home games just before the split, one of which was against Hearts, when they were fighting to stay up, another big gate, plus one more erse cheek home game with us having our first top 6 finish the season football was shut down with 8 games to go, then there was still restriction into another season, with a limit put on how many fans could attend games, with spacing and red zones. Also  you can take away to govt loan (which wouldn't have happened with no covid lockdown), you're wiping out almost 3M, and i've not included other gates from the rest of the teams we'd have played during the 3 seasons that covid restriction impacted.

I am not ignoring it. Remember you need to balance revenue  (Dykes sale, Gov loan, Prize money, cup win, furlough money) with the costs at that time.

I accept it was tough time i just don't think it was as tough as you make out at times.

[Livi]

2 hours ago, Roger the cabin boy said:

No figures were quoted but there was a statement from the former club chairman at that time 

You got it? 

[Roger the cabin boy]

13 minutes ago, Livi said:

You got it? 

Not to hand but if you go on the livi website and search either the archive stuff or even just search “chairman statement” it should be there.

 

That’s how I found it the first time 

[Livi]

I had a gander on the official website and it's amazing what you see and remember but clearly didn't pay much attention at the time.

Clearly in 2022 the club had no issues or concerns about club finances. 

Here is a link to the story - https://livingstonfc.co.uk/board-update/

So either this was just to pacify the fans or something has substantially changed which they have not come back out and updated the fans with.

Remember the timing of this update was post understanding of any financial damage caused by Covid-19

I am sure the excuses will be incoming.

 

 

Edited July 2 by Livi

[Cptn Hooch]

9 hours ago, LiviLion said:

 

Going to take a wild guess and say 17% of what they were at this time last year.

 

8 hours ago, Livi said:

Never easy to just get a straight answer is it? Ah well i got what i deserved  
 

 

I can't see how you don't understand it....the number of tickets sold at this time last year plus 17% of that number is the current number we have sold...it's a good sign after the shitshow of last season

[Livi]

2 minutes ago, Cptn Hooch said:

 

I can't see how you don't understand it....the number of tickets sold at this time last year plus 17% of that number is the current number we have sold...it's a good sign after the shitshow of last season

Why not just say we have 650* ST a 17% increase on this time last year

Then I'd get it

* i made that number up to illustrate my post 

[Livi La Vida Loca]

1 hour ago, Livi said:

Why not just say we have 650* ST a 17% increase on this time last year

Then I'd get it

* i made that number up to illustrate my post 

This question was asked at the fans forum and the reasoning was media perception. 

The club does not want to celebrate hitting 500 tickets sold at this point while our competitors are announcing sales into a thousand+

[Livi]

9 hours ago, Livi La Vida Loca said:

This question was asked at the fans forum and the reasoning was media perception. 

The club does not want to celebrate hitting 500 tickets sold at this point while our competitors are announcing sales into a thousand+

Fair enough but imo thats just daft focussing on others the world knows we have a relatively small fan base which is madness given the size of West Lothian. 
 

Thanks for clearing it up.

[Dav nan Gael]

10 minutes ago, Livi said:

Fair enough but imo thats just daft focussing on others the world knows we have a relatively small fan base which is madness given the size of West Lothian. 
 

Thanks for clearing it up.

100% agree Livi it is madness. 

But we're competing against 4 bigger clubs,two of them, 15 miles to the East and another two, 30 miles to the west.

Admittedly as are others (Falkirk).

Plus we've now got a pyramid and lots of local teams now making there way up.......Broxburn Athletic prime example. 

I don't stay in Livi and I know plenty of other livi fans who don't and stay in the surroundings towns and villages,some further afield. 

The issue support wise lies within Livingston itself,the town, population not far off 60,000  and yet it struggles to support its club,who are playing and have played at a high level...................

[Livi]

21 minutes ago, Dav nan Gael said:

100% agree Livi it is madness. 

But we're competing against 4 bigger clubs,two of them, 15 miles to the East and another two, 30 miles to the west.

Admittedly as are others (Falkirk).

Plus we've now got a pyramid and lots of local teams now making there way up.......Broxburn Athletic prime example. 

I don't stay in Livi and I know plenty of other livi fans who don't and stay in the surroundings towns and villages,some further afield. 

The issue support wise lies within Livingston itself,the town, population not far off 60,000  and yet it struggles to support its club,who are playing and have played at a high level...................

I know I say its madness but i have seen it for the last 30 years

Only in the Keane era was there regularly 5 or 6 thousand season tickets. If being cynical those were in the days of long waiting lists in Glasgow for a season ticket

 

2 Administrations also don't help and the years of shenanigans that has gone on at Almondvale

 

 

[SteviePar.]

Probably always a challenge in new towns like Livingston. A fair proportion of the population will be families originally from Glasgow and Edinburgh and want to support The Rangers or Hibs like their parents. Hopefully that draw diminishes over the years.

[Troy.1995]

1 hour ago, SteviePar. said:

Probably always a challenge in new towns like Livingston. A fair proportion of the population will be families originally from Glasgow and Edinburgh and want to support The Rangers or Hibs like their parents. Hopefully that draw diminishes over the years.

Spot on.And most Livi fans would agree.Unfortunatly,its a millstone around our necks,and to be frank,always has been.Theres still a few of us from the early days,but ive noticed recently more young ones are coming along which hopefully bodes well for the future .

[LIVIFOREVER]

3 hours ago, SteviePar. said:

Probably always a challenge in new towns like Livingston. A fair proportion of the population will be families originally from Glasgow and Edinburgh and want to support The Rangers or Hibs like their parents. Hopefully that draw diminishes over the years.

Yep West Lothian was full of the Glasgow overspill, Livingston being close to Edinburgh also attracted a lot from there. The future lies in the younger generation having kids and taking them to Livi games, which is now happening, that's what other teams have over a young club like Livingston. Unfortunately we lost thousands of fans from the Keane era, drifting away after admin and relegation, that prob set us back a generation in terms of building up a decent fanbase. 

But hey, we may get slagged by others point scoring over crowdwanks, but we've had 2 spells (11 years) in the top flight in the last 24 years, and reached 2 major cup finals (winning one), i'll take that over boasting how many fans anyone has.

Edited July 2 by LIVIFOREVER

[LIVIFOREVER]

16 hours ago, Livi said:

I am not ignoring it. Remember you need to balance revenue  (Dykes sale, Gov loan, Prize money, cup win, furlough money) with the costs at that time.

I accept it was tough time i just don't think it was as tough as you make out at times.

Where i do agree with you on overspend and poor administration (sends shivers down my spine using that word) is last season was a shitshow with our performances in the league, but we had 2 very good paydays from cup runs and getting the erse cheeks away, and should be showing a profit for that season, but it has prob gone on paying court cases, which aren't directly club business. 

Seems a reverse on what Rangers did, putting all their debt on a holding company, making out the club didn't go into liquidation, and keeping all their historic titles and cup wins. We're using club funds in a fight between holding companies, adding more debt onto the club.