May 2011 Election

[renton]

Hmmm, I'm pretty convinced I read a line on your 'about me' page that said you were "bravely battling separatism". But I don't have any evidence for that, so I could be wrong there.

to be fair it has that certain captain mainwairing-esque self righteous, sloganeering, absolutionist pomposity about it that I've come to expect from oor ad lib.

[Ad Lib]

Hmmm, I'm pretty convinced I read a line on your 'about me' page that said you were "bravely battling separatism". But I don't have any evidence for that, so I could be wrong there.

Unfortunately the blogger software doesn't appear to have a time/date-stamp for standalone pages. I can, however, personally attest that page has not been edited since at least 2 months ago and probably hasn't been edited since it was created some point late October/early November.

You can wait for the WikiLeak if you want though.

[Swampy]

I am not an anti-separatist. I am against certain classes of separatist (such as, for example, Alex Salmond, who wants to break one Union to join another).

Any state is a "union."

His brand of separatism is to be opposed as it is counter-productive. His real agenda is not a brand of separatism I could ever buy into...

... Yes, they are. They believe that breaking away from one Union will let the people control their own destiny... except they want to join the EU and the Euro, stopping the people from... controlling their own destiny. In the process they also ignore the real issue (to me) which is the existence and size of government. Indeed given the stronger left bias of the Scottish polity c.f. that of the UK creating a situation where more government intervention was the norm would not solve the problem. As I've said before if there was a separatist movement which argued for withdrawal from both the EU and the UK, a codified constitution embodying the content of the ECHR, among a polity which believed in rolling back the state, I would give serious consideration to supporting it.

I actually have quite a bit of sympathy for this viewpoint. It's certainly true that, if today is a guide, that an independent Scotland would be many cases not be any more liberal than it is now in the UK. But what conservatives miss is that an independent Scotland would have a new institutional structure, one that can far better protect liberty than the Westminster model. Even with the Scottish Parliament we see a much more transparent and accountable body than anything the UK has to offer, and there's no reason why an atmosphere of independence can't take the Holyrood model and retain or even improve upon it.

[Ad Lib]

Any state is a "union."

True. Does that mean anyone who believes in a state is a Unionist... ?

I actually have quite a bit of sympathy for this viewpoint. It's certainly true that, if today is a guide, that an independent Scotland would be many cases not be any more liberal than it is now in the UK. But what conservatives miss is that an independent Scotland would have a new institutional structure, one that can far better protect liberty than the Westminster model. Even with the Scottish Parliament we see a much more transparent and accountable body than anything the UK has to offer, and there's no reason why an atmosphere of independence can't take the Holyrood model and retain or even improve upon it.

I'm not a conservative.

On the substance of the institutional structure, it's a fair argument. What I don't see is why those arguments are any less valid of Scotland than they are of the UK than they are of the EU than they are of all parts of the world (to varying degrees) writ large. I think where you draw the boundaries of autonomous geographical areas ignores the fundamentals.

Of course the creation of a new state presents an opportunity to rethink and tighten the constitutional framework and give more thought about the role of central actors in society. For me though, the problem is less the structure and more the attitudes of large parts of society (especially of Scottish society) being incompatible with basic principles of liberty. Particularly among the legal and political communities there is a chippy attitude towards constitutional formalism and with it a warped understanding of fundamental rights.

If you combine that with the seemingly bizarre attachment to constitutional relics like the Royal Family (as, for example Alex Salmond's party maintains support for). Of course that's equally true of the so-called Unionist Parties, but it does beg the question: what actually changes?

The current face of Scottish independence doesn't, in my view, offer an improvement of the status quo on the issues that really matter. I remain perfectly open to a radical alternative, and I recognise completely the political realities mean the SNP couldn't really entertain something like that. But it means I can't endorse what they're proposing. That doesn't mean I think the status quo is good, satisfactory or even preferable; I just don't see a persuasive link between the ends and the means.

[Reynard]

True. Does that mean anyone who believes in a state is a Unionist... ?

I'm not a conservative.

On the substance of the institutional structure, it's a fair argument. What I don't see is why those arguments are any less valid of Scotland than they are of the UK than they are of the EU than they are of all parts of the world (to varying degrees) writ large. I think where you draw the boundaries of autonomous geographical areas ignores the fundamentals.

Of course the creation of a new state presents an opportunity to rethink and tighten the constitutional framework and give more thought about the role of central actors in society. For me though, the problem is less the structure and more the attitudes of large parts of society (especially of Scottish society) being incompatible with basic principles of liberty. Particularly among the legal and political communities there is a chippy attitude towards constitutional formalism and with it a warped understanding of fundamental rights.

If you combine that with the seemingly bizarre attachment to constitutional relics like the Royal Family (as, for example Alex Salmond's party maintains support for). Of course that's equally true of the so-called Unionist Parties, but it does beg the question: what actually changes?

The current face of Scottish independence doesn't, in my view, offer an improvement of the status quo on the issues that really matter. I remain perfectly open to a radical alternative, and I recognise completely the political realities mean the SNP couldn't really entertain something like that. But it means I can't endorse what they're proposing. That doesn't mean I think the status quo is good, satisfactory or even preferable; I just don't see a persuasive link between the ends and the means.

The only reason I am fully against independence is because I really don't want to see the place handed over to a bunch of incompetent left wing c***s who would fucking ruin the place before it ever got a chance to grow and prosper. And I have absolutely no time at all for the left and their shite. At least the union gives me a slight chance of seeing a radical right of centre government once in a blue moon. So I'll stick with that. Not because I have any great love of "the union" but because I believe the country would be far better off if it followed a right of centre agenda, I think it would be better for all of us. If I thought there was any remote chance of this bit of the world going down that route I'd drop England Wales and NI like a fucking hot potato and campaign furiously for separation. But there is no chance of that happening, so f**k that.

[xbl]

Just watching Newsnicht.

Question to the Tory Budget Spokesman: "So, presumably your Unionist heart is beating with pride at keeping a nationalist government in power again?"

[nessies long lost ghost]

The only reason I am fully against independence is because I really don't want to see the place handed over to a bunch of incompetent left wing c***s who would fucking ruin the place before it ever got a chance to grow and prosper. And I have absolutely no time at all for the left and their shite. At least the union gives me a slight chance of seeing a radical right of centre government once in a blue moon. So I'll stick with that. Not because I have any great love of "the union" but because I believe the country would be far better off if it followed a right of centre agenda, I think it would be better for all of us. If I thought there was any remote chance of this bit of the world going down that route I'd drop England Wales and NI like a fucking hot potato and campaign furiously for separation. But there is no chance of that happening, so f**k that.

That is a big reason of mine. The other main one is that Salmond like Europe and want to use the euro currency.

[Pink Freud]

Just watching Newsnicht.

Question to the Tory Budget Spokesman: "So, presumably your Unionist heart is beating with pride at keeping a nationalist government in power again?"

THat's genuinely shit. What a fucking stupid thing to ask.

[Gordon EF]

True. Does that mean anyone who believes in a state is a Unionist... ?

Unionist, in a non-specific sense, is really a bit meaningless when used to describe Brits who support the union of the UK. Just as Nationalist is very incorrect when actually describing someone who favours independence for Scotland.

[capybara]

Unionist, in a non-specific sense, is really a bit meaningless when used to describe Brits who support the union of the UK. Just as Nationalist is very incorrect when actually describing someone who favours independence for Scotland.

To be honest i think they are used as slightly derogatory phrases,by both sides.

[xbl]

To be honest i think they are used as slightly derogatory phrases,by both sides.

Absolutely, I keep a bucket in my office to spit disdainfully into whenever I type the word "Unionist". On a good day, that bucket has to be emptied twice.

[Swampy]

THat's genuinely shit. What a fucking stupid thing to ask.

Really, "unionist bloc" isn't just trolling. There's plenty of truth in it.

[Broccoli Dog]

there is no 'left and right' in scotland just separatist v unionist.

[xbl]

there is no 'left and right' in scotland just separatist v unionist.

Thank you, I've been saying that for weeks now!

[Reynard]

there is no 'left and right' in scotland just separatist v unionist.

It really is a fucking shit selection all round.

Left wing unionist shit v left wing nationalist shit.

No wonder we are a bunch of miserable whingeing b*****ds.

[Gordon EF]

there is no 'left and right' in scotland just separatist v unionist.

When the unionists decided 'nationalist' wasn't derogatory enough, they started wheeling out the 'separatist' line, which, of course has been incorporated by the unionist scum among the public.

[Broccoli Dog]

i guess it's hard for the unionist bloc to deride nationalism when the labour and tory london parties both rush to wrap themselves in the butchers apron and want us all to celebrate 'britishness'.

[OldWasp]

I always preferred "secessionist" - but its too hard to spell.

[Ad Lib]

Really, "unionist bloc" isn't just trolling. There's plenty of truth in it.

I'd be interested to know your thoughts on the budget passed just yesterday. As I said to xbl, I'm not denying that the Independence/Non-Independence divide is a cleavage in Scottish politics, but it's caricature to suggest that they vote along that cleavage for the sake of it.

[Swampy]

I'd be interested to know your thoughts on the budget passed just yesterday. As I said to xbl, I'm not denying that the Independence/Non-Independence divide is a cleavage in Scottish politics, but it's caricature to suggest that they vote along that cleavage for the sake of it.

As per the part in bold we're in complete agreement. That the bloc exists doesn't mean that it will always, always vote in lock-step, any more than we never see dissent within political parties. I think the real caricaturist here is you: going by your logic we'd have to say that there's no such thing as the Labour party because we saw active disagreement in the latter days of Brown's reign.