Game of Thrones

[milton75]

I think Arya was still being deliberately careless to draw The Waif out. She'll have known she was marked for death and that the Faceless Men stray over to Westeros from time to time, so it was better to try and neutralise the threat instead of looking over her shoulder all the time.

 

Neutralise her by attempting to run off with her knife in her guts? Nah, it was shite writing. There was nothing in that scene that would have stopped Arya getting killed for being so stupid. The Waif could have easily slit her throat or have punctured her stomach in the stabbing, or simply had a poisoned blade.

[milton75]

That plus fighting with no eyes at the start of this series gave her the advantage.

 

Maybe, but presumably the Waif would have had the same training, plus years to perfect it.

[EdgarusQPFC]

You may have noticed that this episode included more than a few nods back to previous ones. Jaime's "The things we do for love" before he attempts the murder that started the whole chain of events in the first place that has ruined the Seven Kingdoms; the Hound's about being beaten by "tougher girls" than the BwB (Brianne and to a certain extent Arya, who was cleverer than he gave her credit for); and Qyburn's whisper to Cercei of one last trump card to play after losing the right of trial by combat - a certain flashback of Bran's recently featuring Qyburn wandering below the King's Landing vaults, then wildfire tearing through it - a nod back to the vision Danys had in Season 2 when she wandered through the King's Landing throne room and it was a scorched ruin) - all reminders of how the past in GoT affects its future.

 

When Arya cut the candle out, she was switching to her Braavosi Water Dancing sword training since series one, part of which involved fighting blindfolded and relying on her other senses to get her foe - the sounds they make, their smell, the slight waves in the air from an opponent's movements, etc.

 

The Waif was already crassly over confident & had broken just about every tenet of the Faceless as it was, but the moment she shut that door behind her, she was as good as dead, walking straight into Arya's trap. Someone with no blinded training & a knife vs someone trained to fight in the dark with a sword? No contest.

Excellent points, very well made. But i think the secret will involve Gendry, Cersei was already fully aware of the wildfire, so its not much of a secret. I can totally see her trying to remove Tommen from power by bringing up his actual lineage, we know Gendry is easily manipulated by strong women and he was last seen heading back to kings landing.

Everything you have said regarding Arya and Waif is absolutely true and i 100% agree with you, i guess i wasnt happy with how they executed it on screen

[the jambo-rocker]

I have to say I do feel like this season has been a lot less refined. Gripweed's example about Brienne and the Ravens is spot on.
 
Although they've probably spunked most of the budget on this week's coming episode, which is great if comes off half as well as it's been hyped, I would probably prefer it to be spread out as some scenes could easily have been covered. I'm hopeful and possibly even behind the idea of the last two seasons being the 7 and 6 episode runs if that means that same budget for 10 is kept and used for more of the shit going down. Also if it can give GRRM more time to at least get the sixth book done and bring some of his engaging stories and dialogue to the show, rather than the gaps being filled by Benioff and Weiss, which it feels like to me.
 
Stuff like Daenery's excruciatingly long return to Meereen had potential to be better used, as well as the Riverrun scenes felt like they've been papered over. Blackfish's last stand could have, and should have been better executed. If you don't want to show him meeting his maker fine, but don't skip the entire blaze of glory altogether. Banshee spoiler to make a point here

Proctor type ending would have been more fitting, taking on everyone by himself and leaving it to ambiguity

 
Tyrion's scenes have been a filler to his story for this season. You could pretty much have skipped this season so far and you wouldn't feel like you've missed anything with him, all probably because they can't neglect one of their main characters screen time on show. You almost wonder if this season would have been better served as an 8 episode run if it's been about moving characters about in place for the next stage of the shit (and there is a lot of it ) going down, which is quite a juxtaposition from feeling like you could have pulled off 12-13 episodes in the earlier seasons.

Edited June 14, 2016 by the jambo-rocker

[ICTChris]

If they lob Gendry back into things then it'll make a joke of it all.

 

Ep 9 - b*****dBowl

 

Ep 10 - Cersei's trial will have some twist - she could say "f**k it" and reveal that Tommen is an b*****d born of incest, Jaime could show up and start dropping bodies, Margaery could make her play (we know that she's faking her piety).  f**k it maybe Dany could fly over on Drogon, land on the roof of the Red Keep and incinerate the fucking lot of them.

 

We've also got Bran to return and the inevitable attack of the walkers on the Wall.

 

It's most likely that Varys is off to speak to the runaway Ironborn but could he be heading to Dorne?  We know that the Dornish were Targaryan loyalists, maybe he's negotiating with House Martell to provide support to a Targaryan restoration.

[WaffenThinMint]

There was nothing in that scene that would have stopped Arya getting killed for being so stupid. The Waif could have easily slit her throat or have punctured her stomach in the stabbing, or simply had a poisoned blade.

 

"The Waif could have easily slit her throat or have punctured her stomach in the stabbing, or simply had a poisoned blade."

 

She could have. But she didn't.

 

She was told not to let Arya suffer. But she didn't.

 

Instead by aiming for her gut she was trying to give her the most painful, prolonged death possible out of nothing more than a petted lip that she saw Arya as a threat to being Jaqen's favourite teacher's pet. A Faceless one is meant to do the job quickly with the minimum of fuss before vanishing from sight, no matter who or what the target. There's a good reason why the Braavos assassin's house tells their employees to concentrate on stealth rather than strength.

 

Moreover, if you're going to stab someone in the guts, you go for the large intestines which causes catastrophic circulation collapse in a short time. The small intestines meanwhile are coiled and looped in such a manner that any sudden internal trauma (such as being gored by a pissed off deer or other prey animal) will push the gut out of the way rather than penetrate them). The irony is that for all the surface area the small intestines take up, your best chance of hitting them is with a bullet - a human plunging a knife simply cannot get up the speed to do so with success, least of all with that pathetic shiv the Waif was using.

 

I think the writers called this one right - the human body is a lot more resilient than most appreciate.

 

Maybe, but presumably the Waif would have had the same training, plus years to perfect it.

 

Why would she? The point of the faceless assassins is hitting their target when they least expect it. Stealth, speed and surprise - and keeping well out of face to face fights where they can be quickly overwhelmed by numbers (eg. pissed off guards).

 

In Episode 3, the Waif gets a well earned smack in the puss and has her attempted revenge strike easily blocked - this is when Arya is blind & the Waif is feeling pissed because for once Arya's not merely her floundering punchbag. Two rookie errors like that don't suggest "years to perfect it", more likely only a year at best more than Arya.

 

Remember most of the Faceless are seldom at the House of Black & White, but are away on missions taking them all over Westeros and Essos (which was how Jaqen came a cropper & met Arya for the first time back in season 2, doing a job in King's Landing, getting caught & going to the Wall his only option for escape). That the Waif is always back at headquarters suggests she was either someone still to complete her training, or a Lt Sobel type viewed merely good enough to pass on training to others but proven to be not trustworthy enough to do missions - it would also part-explain her desperation ("you promised me!") for Jaqen to let her murder Arya for not killing Lady Crane as ordered. It would also explain her dislike of Arya, bitterness at the thought of another younger trainee passing her by while she'd doomed forever to be nothing more than the primary teacher at the House of Shit Lighting.

[milton75]

I will buy all that, from the point of view of the Waif's intentions, sure.

 

However none of it excuses them having Arya wandering about free and easy. For all she knew the Waif might have been far more professional when it came to a job (being, as you say, she was keen to prove herself), or it may have been someone entirely different sent after her.

It might even have been Jaqen himself, having to do the deed as he had brought her in, and whether he liked her or not, he would definitely be wholly professional.

[Ira Gaines]

I could get hung up on stuff like shite writing and that, but I'm afraid I was too busy just loving the shit out of the episode to do that.

[Jack Burton]

I think someone alluded to it earlier in the thread but there really seems to be a direct correlation between the deterioration of the writing and the lack of source material available to them. 

 

There are still covering parts of the last book that was released but there is a notable decline in the quality of the books which is being repeated in the TV show. The author has opened up too many different plot threads and doesn't know how to tie them all back together now which is why I think it is taking so long for the next book to be released. It also means that certain storylines from the TV show have little pay off such as the Arya storyline or the Riverrun siege. If all the books had already been written then I am not sure if they would have included the Arya storyline or at least wouldn't have made such a big deal of it. When the show was covering the previous books then they knew how most things concluded and could leave out a lot of the waffle or minor storylines.

 

On last nights episode, I enjoyed parts of it but the scene with Tyrion was cringeworthy. Was disappointing that the Arya and Riverrun storylines didn't deliver much and it does seem that they are including some characters just for the sake of it Bronn, Brienne, Tyrion all added nothing to last night's episode.

[Fide]

 

or a Lt Sobel type viewed merely good enough to pass on training to others but proven to be not trustworthy enough to do missions

 

Lt Sobel was a c**t, tbf.

Currahee!!!

[Ira Gaines]

Actually understand many of the complaints. I loved the chase scene, but reading the comments here, definitely getting the terminator comparison. Not making me like it any less mind you, but I get it. And the Varys/Tyrion thing was a good moment to me. Can see why folk cringe, but at the same time, I'm a sucker for a bit of feels. Hence my favourite part of the episode was the wave.

[Fide]

How Bronn greets people.

[Forfinn]

I was quite disappointed with the Riverrun storyline.  For all book fans seem to love the Blackfish, he came across as a needlessly stubborn old git.  He didn't need to die and for all the shtick about going out fighting, he could have left with Brienne and been a massive asset to his niece's daughter - even if he did miss the opportunity to lead his army to her aid.

 

Quite enjoyed the scene between Jaime and Edmure.  Some of the intense one-on-one dialogue scenes in this series have been great.  It's probably testament to how good an actor Tobias Menzies (Edmure) is, but I can't watch him in anything now without feeling repulsed after seeing him in Outlander as the utterly horrific Captain Randall.

 

Arya's pursuit scene was far too Hollywood-y, but I cheered when she snuffed out the candle.  She knew the Waif would beat her in a normal fight so used the one advantage she had - all that training without being able to see.  That said, I'm glad her time in Braavos seems to be at an end.  She'll return to Westeros as a trained assassin determined to help the Stark cause.  Should be interesting.

 

The ineptitude of Cersei continues to amaze me.  Pretty much every decision she ever makes ends up being the wrong one.  She showed her hand too early with the Mountain and now she's up sh*t creek without a paddle when it comes to the trial.  Whether it's wildfire or Gendry she's got up her sleeve re the conversation with Qyburn, I'd be pretty certain it'll go horribly wrong.

 

The natural conclusion to Cersei's trial is Tommen's rule being shown as illegitimate.  The naïve young monarch could come to regret listening to the High Sparrow.

 

And as awesome as it is seeing the Hound back, the writers need to be careful they don't turn him in to the comic relief.

[Ira Gaines]

I thought the Blackfish came across quite well in that episode. Thought he came across as a c**t before but they did a decent job of putting his story across in this episode. Actually felt for him by the end.

[Fide]

I was quite disappointed with the Riverrun storyline.  For all book fans seem to love the Blackfish, he came across as a needlessly stubborn old git.  He didn't need to die

 

Maybe he hasn't.

 

It's the GoT rule.  Unless you see them die with your own eyes, they probably haven't.

[WaffenThinMint]

I will buy all that, from the point of view of the Waif's intentions, sure.

 

However none of it excuses them having Arya wandering about free and easy. For all she knew the Waif might have been far more professional when it came to a job (being, as you say, she was keen to prove herself), or it may have been someone entirely different sent after her.

It might even have been Jaqen himself, having to do the deed as he had brought her in, and whether he liked her or not, he would definitely be wholly professional.

 

I could see why Arya would go wandering around - knowing of the Faceless' methods she may have thought erroneously there was more safety in crowded streets with plenty of witnesses with the chance to spot the same face being always several ominous steps behind her where ever she went, not appreciating that Braavos was a city built by the Faceless & the locals would turn away from someone being stabbed by someone that instantly changed their face thereafter, rather in the same manner knowing citizens turned away (let alone intervened) from someone being attacked by the local gangsters in our own world.

 

Whatever else Arya learned in Braavos, their cultural norms weren't part of it, & it almost cost her her life.

 

I think Arya guessed (& she was proven right) that whatever disputes there are between her and Jaqen regarding concepts of honour, duty, theology, etc. there's always going to be that unspoken bond that both saved each others lives in the past, so he was never a threat. Jaqen even chided Arya in the past for behaving with a lack of honour - hardly the words of some god automaton like the various Lord of Light butchers. Hence also the reason I think they're destined to meet again after she's had time to put what she's learned to the test in Westeros.

 

The ineptitude of Cersei continues to amaze me. Pretty much every decision she ever makes ends up being the wrong one. She showed her hand too early with the Mountain and now she's up sh*t creek without a paddle when it comes to the trial. Whether it's wildfire or Gendry she's got up her sleeve re the conversation with Qyburn, I'd be pretty certain it'll go horribly wrong.

Cercei is simply proving what Tyrion & Oberyn Martell said of her at different times: she thinks herself clever, but she's really a stupid, selfish, spiteful child whose pampered upbringing & protection from a clever ruthless father meant she grew up under the illusion she'd never put a foot wrong.

 

From the first episode where she looked pained at having to talk with Caitlyn Stark (despite being in her house) it was clear her worst enemy would always be herself. Now without daddy to restrain her, events are taking their natural course.

Edited June 14, 2016 by WaffenThinMint

[Homer Thompson]

Don't forget she'll still have some of that Milk of the Poppy (essentially opium) in her system, that combined with terror of imminent death would have been enough to get her that far. Ask any police officer or casualty unit about trying to take down some wounded smackhead.

 

 

Yeah, I get that. It was more the flitting between hardly being able to move, to running through the streets, to staggering then back to well enough to kill the Waif that bugged me

[AsimButtHitsASix]

Why would Cersei want to bring back Robert's b*****d? Her entire schtick has been about doing everything she can for the benefit of her kids. Bringing out the rightful heir and admitting Tommen's the result of a family get together in Lochgelly just fucks her, and her last remaining child, over entirely

[paul-r-cfc]

Yeah, I get that. It was more the flitting between hardly being able to move, to running through the streets, to staggering then back to well enough to kill the Waif that bugged me

I saw that as her perhaps over playing the extent of her wound to breed even more overconfidence in the waif and get her where she wanted her to be. Definitely leading her to that room anyway

[Kyle]

Sorry to bring up the books again, but book Cersei is as stupid politically as the one in the tv show. Lena Headey's portrayal is different, but whenever Cersei is faced with a choice you can sense she's making the wrong one. She chases away or alienates all of her allies before the walk of shame and then finds herself at the mercy of her enemies. If she does end up bringing Gendry back as the rightful heir, she'd have to confess to incest to the faith (which would result in her death most likely) and ruin the life of her son, who she loves more than anything. I just can't see her doing that.

 

I think Wildfire is the most plausible explanation given what's gone before (the visions, Cersei continually talking about burning cities to the ground, Jaime's passing reference in the most recent episode) but I wouldn't totally rule out Varys coming to her aid. It could be why he's coming back to Westeros, to further destabilise things before Dany crosses the narrow sea, and if Cersei is still in control that is almost certain to be the case.

 

I suspect Varys will turn up in Dorne. They (along with the Vale) haven't been involved in the war of the 5 kings so still have an extremely strong, fresh standing army. They are also Targaryen loyalists. The dragons, the unsullied, the Dothraki, the Iron born's fleet and Dornish army on Dany's side would be formidable for a united Westeros, completely overwhelming for this divided one.

 

Of all the major houses in GoT, most are now completely decimated or are in disarray, and most are either in war with one another or are in no position to fight further.

 

Starks - only the kids and the b*****d son remain.

Lannisters - Jaime will be the head of that house now. Great fighter, not sure he's much a commander.

Martells - All dead apparently - only the sand snakes remain

Baratheons - Robert has a few b*****ds kicking about (Gendry in the tv show, and maybe Edric if he ever comes into it) but no true borns anywhere.

Tyrell - Edmure, who is a Lannister/Frey stooge

Arryn - Robin is alive, but a complete nutcase who is at the beckon call of Littlefinger,. who loves chaos.

 

This has been a place setting season, but it'll have things perfectly in place for Dany's conquering of Westeros, which I suspect will be season, followed by the fight between the white walkers and a unified (but beleaguered) Westeros in season 8. If Jon's parentage is confirmed, she'll have a natural ally in him too.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Kyle