Hillsborough debate

[pandarilla]

I wasn't defending the Sun nor the Police.

I alluded to the cover up in the Police's "actions" & "inactions" as well as the Government of the days destain for football & its ongoing issues with hooliganism back then hence a lack of shock or surprise at this was eventually exposed.

The hysteria created by some in pointing the finger at the Police for being solely responsible for the deaths (or murders according to some) is as inaccurate as blaming the Belgian bricklayers for the wall that collapsed at Hysel in '85.

It was a "series of events" that lead to the deaths of the 96 fans and as despicable as some of the "actions" & "inactions" of the Police........they weren't soley responsible.........which was the point I was making.

I'll concede that the campaign has allowed a few numpties to jump on the bandwagon and take it too far. But at heart the campaign is entirely justified. The organisers have acted with complete dignity (even if some of those on the bandwagon haven't).

The cause of the deaths was indeed a series of unfortunate events but this included police negligence. The sustained cover-up that followed was nothing other than malicious. Indefensible.

[Larbert_Par]

Don't Scousers have sheer levels of contempt for basically everything that isn't themselves?

Of the Liverpudlians that I know (and that's quite a few now from going to Everton games) then my answer to this would be no.

Royal Mail can't but individuals can. Its called integrity and I say fair play to them. Too many folk grumble and moan and never take a stand.

Agree with you completely here.

[sjc]

I'll concede that the campaign has allowed a few numpties to jump on the bandwagon and take it too far. But at heart the campaign is entirely justified. The organisers have acted with complete dignity (even if some of those on the bandwagon haven't).

The cause of the deaths was indeed a series of unfortunate events but this included police negligence. The sustained cover-up that followed was nothing other than malicious. Indefensible.

I totally agree......I genuinely wasn't belittling the campaign for the full facts to be exposed by the families, just raising points often forgotten by the bandwagon jumpers as you say.

[sjc]

Exactly this, a catalogue of disasters lead to hilsbourgh and the cover ups that ensued lead to the justice for 96 campaign.

Which part of this differed to what I posted wisbit?

Be specific please.

[~~~]

I'll concede that the campaign has allowed a few numpties to jump on the bandwagon and take it too far. But at heart the campaign is entirely justified. The organisers have acted with complete dignity (even if some of those on the bandwagon haven't).

The cause of the deaths was indeed a series of unfortunate events but this included police negligence. The sustained cover-up that followed was nothing other than malicious. Indefensible.

I'll also assume you mean one of the series of unfortunate events was Liverpool fans, but just didn't want to say it.

I'd say more than "a few" have jumped on the bandwagon. Any mention of Hillsborough that doesn't portray Liverpool fans or the club in a positive light and people are hounded for this and someone it's twisted to come across as you're somehow mocking the dead

Alan Davis was a great example of this

[sjc]

Martyrs, agendas, basically it all to be fair.

So you're saying that nobody has bandwagon jumped the campaign for justice (a campaign I said I agreed with) and created a hysteria which solely aportions blame at the hands of the Police & negated the "series of events" (again, a phrase I used in a previous post) which lead to the deaths of the 96 supporters?

You agreed with a poster above who acknowledged the above points so I fail to see what you are getting at.

[Jimmy85]

"worserer"

You're fucking kidding, right?

[Jimmy85]

Just ignore him he's a moaning p***k

[forever_blue]

wisbit had started arguing with sjc before stating his point as being remarkably similar to the point sjc put across before hand apart from he didn't use the term martyr.

[sjc]

That is not how you addressed the issue in your first post.

It is well known what events lead to the disaster, the campaign was set up after the events were published because the reported events and what actually took place were not correlating.

Decisions were made that day that cost 96 lives, people wanted answers

To call them martyrs and having agendas is being a tad disingenuous to say the least, irrespective of wether there has been bandwagon types jumping aboard. Let's not forget this happened in 89 and only now has the truth been able to trickle out.

I think the people of Liverpool and Liverpool FC have every right to feel aggrieved don't you ?

Then you clearly misread or misunderstand my 1st post.....I never called the 96 martyrs.......I said that they been made out to be martyrs by some (not all) bandwagon jumpers of the campaign for justice. At no point did I say they 96 or their families did not deserve the truth to be exposed.

Like I said in my 2nd post, I wasn't defending the Police or the Sun in either post but pointing out the bandwagon jumpers are quick to vilify the Police (rightly so in many respects) and the Sun (correct if they were aware of the facts at the time) but not so vocal when it comes to vilifying the ticketless fans who entered the confined space of the Leppings Lane terrace.

Just to be clear wisbit......it was the bandwagon jumpers I said had the agenda & are the ones who had tried to make martyrs of the 96.

[sjc]

Where do you mention bandwagon in this post.

No wonder I miss read it if you left it out completely.

The more I read it the worserer your post gets tbh.

Bandwagon jumpers = righteous cause........quantified by going on to say that I was glad that the 96 & their families got the justice they deserved.

I shouldn't really be surprised that you failed to comprehend my post fully as you struggle to spell words let alone understand them.......I promise to break all future posts down to laymans terms just for you wisbit.

[welshbairn]

Trying to get into a game without a ticket. Shocking, mindless thuggery. Wonder who let them in?

[sjc]

I wasn't the only one who misread your post as pandarilla (sic) picked up on it too.

No need to explain in layman's terms just be a little clearer an it should clear up any confusions.

Fanks.

and yet by the end of my 2nd post he acknowledged the point I was making and broadly agreed with it.......you on the other hand still don't grasp it 5 posts later!

[forever_blue]

The worsist type of supporter.

it was rather amusing the first time, now its no funny at all.

[sjc]

Trying to get into a game without a ticket. Shocking, mindless thuggery. Wonder who let them in?

I wouldn't call it mindless thuggery just very irresponsible, which amongst other actions & inactions by others lead to the deaths of 96 football supporters.

[sjc]

Because I don't agree with it ?

So you agree with Parsarilla (sic) who broadly concurrs with me then?

[sjc]

On who's part was it irresponsible ?

I take it you mean the supporters themselves yes ?

Both the ticketless supporters for entering & those for allowing them to enter.

It's called a "duty of care" we're all responsible for our own actions/inactions which may endanger not only your own life but that of others affected by you said actions/inactions.

[Ira Gaines]

it was rather amusing the first time, now its no funny at all.

That's because he had f**k all idea the first time. Now he's trying to kid on it was all a game.

Lets face it. Expecting something close to a mature rational discussion with wisbit is like expecting shite to come out yer dick.

Edited June 12, 2014 by NewDomDom

[welshbairn]

I wouldn't call it mindless thuggery just very irresponsible, which amongst other actions & inactions by others lead to the deaths of 96 football supporters.

What it is is bog standard, predictable behaviour by normal football fans. The police open a door, they walk in. As an individual you could have no idea what was waiting inside. It was the police's and the stewards job to control access, and they fucked up big style, covered it up and tried to blame the fans, just as you're doing.

[sjc]

I'll concede that the campaign has allowed a few numpties to jump on the bandwagon and take it too far. But at heart the campaign is entirely justified. The organisers have acted with complete dignity (even if some of those on the bandwagon haven't).

The cause of the deaths was indeed a series of unfortunate events but this included police negligence. The sustained cover-up that followed was nothing other than malicious. Indefensible.

Exactly this, a catalogue of disasters lead to hilsbourgh and the cover ups that ensued lead to the justice for 96 campaign.

Debatable.

which part don't you agree with?