sjc Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 I wasn't the only one who misread your post as pandarilla (sic) picked up on it too. No need to explain in layman's terms just be a little clearer an it should clear up any confusions. Fanks. and yet by the end of my 2nd post he acknowledged the point I was making and broadly agreed with it.......you on the other hand still don't grasp it 5 posts later! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forever_blue Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 The worsist type of supporter. it was rather amusing the first time, now its no funny at all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjc Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Trying to get into a game without a ticket. Shocking, mindless thuggery. Wonder who let them in? I wouldn't call it mindless thuggery just very irresponsible, which amongst other actions & inactions by others lead to the deaths of 96 football supporters. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjc Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Because I don't agree with it ? So you agree with Parsarilla (sic) who broadly concurrs with me then? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjc Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 On who's part was it irresponsible ? I take it you mean the supporters themselves yes ? Both the ticketless supporters for entering & those for allowing them to enter. It's called a "duty of care" we're all responsible for our own actions/inactions which may endanger not only your own life but that of others affected by you said actions/inactions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Gaines Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) it was rather amusing the first time, now its no funny at all. That's because he had f**k all idea the first time. Now he's trying to kid on it was all a game. Lets face it. Expecting something close to a mature rational discussion with wisbit is like expecting shite to come out yer dick. Edited June 12, 2014 by NewDomDom 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 I wouldn't call it mindless thuggery just very irresponsible, which amongst other actions & inactions by others lead to the deaths of 96 football supporters. What it is is bog standard, predictable behaviour by normal football fans. The police open a door, they walk in. As an individual you could have no idea what was waiting inside. It was the police's and the stewards job to control access, and they fucked up big style, covered it up and tried to blame the fans, just as you're doing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjc Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 I'll concede that the campaign has allowed a few numpties to jump on the bandwagon and take it too far. But at heart the campaign is entirely justified. The organisers have acted with complete dignity (even if some of those on the bandwagon haven't). The cause of the deaths was indeed a series of unfortunate events but this included police negligence. The sustained cover-up that followed was nothing other than malicious. Indefensible. Exactly this, a catalogue of disasters lead to hilsbourgh and the cover ups that ensued lead to the justice for 96 campaign. Debatable. which part don't you agree with? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjc Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Sorry who has a duty of care ? we all do wisbit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjc Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 What it is is bog standard, predictable behaviour by normal football fans. The police open a door, they walk in. As an individual you could have no idea what was waiting inside. It was the police's and the stewards job to control access, and they fucked up big style, covered it up and tried to blame the fans, just as you're doing. It doesn't make it correct that it's "bog standard, predictable behavior by normal football fans".....you have a responsibility for your actions.......at no point have I tried to solely blame the ticketless fans for what happened......I fully acknowledge the Police's negligence by not only their actions and inactions but also in them covering it up.........The ticketless fans entering the ground were part of the "series of events" that lead to 96 people dying. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjc Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 More so the c***s getting paid for it, I believe At no point have I said the Police controlling the crowd weren't also responsible for their actions........this doesn't mean that just because someone else is in charge that you have no responsibility for your own behaviour. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjc Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Getting pushed through an open gate ? Remember the turnstile opened allowing non ticketed persons into the ground. if you're saying the Police "pushed" them through an open gate then there's clearly a case for murder/manslaughter to be answered.......but I suspect you are on about the ticketless fans at the back "pushing" them through, yes? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forever_blue Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Why am I bothering. i dont know because you are failing miserably and having an absoloute nightmare 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjc Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Really ? You will have proof of this I'm sure.. There was a crush at the turnstile the gate was opened to... Why am I bothering. I'm well aware of the facts of the case wisbit.......what we are arguing is "points of law" in which a negligent act by one party resulted in another negligent act of another party which was the cause of the deaths. Without one act the likelihood of the other reduces. Somehow highlighting this seems to get misconstrued as defending the Police for their negligence and subsequent cover up.......which of course I'm not. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjc Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 You didn't mention that in your first post either. what didn't I mention? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7-2 Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 And Kelvin Mackenzie was working as some sort of rogue operative was he? This was part of the Sun's agenda in the 1980s. It demonised working class communities (hence my reference to the miner's strike) and pretty much acted as a mouthpiece for Thatcher's government. I think you misunderstood my point about the apology. My point is that the fact it was a front page spread does not convince me (or the city of Liverpool) that the Sun is being run any differently to the way it was in the 80s. Times have changed but their agenda is just the same. In some ways he was, as, being the arrogant shit stirrer he is, he's the sort of person to do what he wants and bugger anyone else. It's been reported he was told by colleagues not to run the offending front page but he did it anyway. True Mackenzie. He will have seen the opportunity to stick the boot in to the riff raff whilst satisfying personal and corporate agendas. The Sun's political stance is well known. Always has been. Mackenzie was an ideal appointment for them as he was and still is as despicable as the Sun itself. It's basically how he earned his crust although it's finally caught up him. I didn't misunderstand your point about the apology. You stated that their full page apology was for business reasons, suggesting it wasn't because they were actually sorry for what was written. Of course they still have an ultra right wing agenda. Why would they change that to suit the Cult of Hillsborough? Presumably if they now had a centre or left wing stance the apology would be deemed genuine. Obviously only those making the apology would know if it was genuine or not, like all apologies. It suits the scouse agenda not to believe it of course. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musketeer Gripweed Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 I'm well aware of the facts of the case wisbit.......what we are arguing is "points of law" in which a negligent act by one party resulted in another negligent act of another party which was the cause of the deaths. Without one act the likelihood of the other reduces. Somehow highlighting this seems to get misconstrued as defending the Police for their negligence and subsequent cover up.......which of course I'm not. There is a basic flaw in your argument. The reason there might have ticketless fans at the turnstyles is, unlike previous semi finals at Hillsborough, there was no police corden away from the ground acting as a ticket check point. Even when they did there was still a crush in the cages in 1981. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7-2 Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 I'm well aware of the facts of the case wisbit.......what we are arguing is "points of law" in which a negligent act by one party resulted in another negligent act of another party which was the cause of the deaths. Without one act the likelihood of the other reduces. Somehow highlighting this seems to get misconstrued as defending the Police for their negligence and subsequent cover up.......which of course I'm not. You must remember that Hillsborough is a total 'if you're not with us you're against us' situation. You are not allowed to have balanced views of a neutral observer. Also, as has been stated on here before, the fact supporters were pushing to get into the ground and causing pressure on the gates was not their fault. It was the polices fault for letting them do it. Duty of care does not apply when you're late getting in for the fitba. That's if any pushing occurred in the first place. It didn't apparently. That makes this game remarkable for being the only one played around that time where everyone waiting to get in behaved impeccably, waiting patiently in turn to reach the turnstiles. How the police managed to manufacture such a build up with everyone behaving responsibly is baffling but they did it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjc Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) There is a basic flaw in your argument. The reason there might have ticketless fans at the turnstyles is, unlike previous semi finals at Hillsborough, there was no police corden away from the ground acting as a ticket check point. Even when they did there was still a crush in the cages in 1981. what argument would that be? would it be the Police's fault if a cordon had been in place and a crush had occurred there? Edited June 12, 2014 by sjc 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjc Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 You must remember that Hillsborough is a total 'if you're not with us you're against us' situation. You are not allowed to have balanced views of a neutral observer. Also, as has been stated on here before, the fact supporters were pushing to get into the ground and causing pressure on the gates was not their fault. It was the polices fault for letting them do it. Duty of care does not apply when you're late getting in for the fitba. That's if any pushing occurred in the first place. It didn't apparently. That makes this game remarkable for being the only one played around that time where everyone waiting to get in behaved impeccably, waiting patiently in turn to reach the turnstiles. How the police managed to manufacture such a build up with everyone behaving responsibly is baffling but they did it. it certainly seems that way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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