nacho Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 You need to read more mate, just parroting "rubbished" with no basis is sad. We expect more from you. TOG have responded and rejected the "dismantling" very easily so now they're onto how is your blog funded? Almost as sad as turning your back on True Rangers Man, Graham Speirs. This bear on bear action just shows how bathered and ill informed you are. no they havent , theyve ignored the points raised 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonedsailor Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 (edited) weve covered this nonsense before it proves nothing of the sort - our old legal entity (oldco) is in liquidation, our new legal entity (newco) is not, the same rules you quote from state that its the same club it has always been, the club that changes legal entity is also not excluded from membership the actual words are "deemed to be an interruption " to membership, ie under uefa rules its considered to be an interruption rather than an actual interruption. after three years are up a "club can apply again" for a uefa licence, so the club remains the same club. added to that you have the various other information below thats shows that uefa recognise us as the same club 1. “We consulted with UEFA, which explained that its rules allowed for the recognition of the ‘sporting continuity’ of a club’s match record, even if that club’s corporate structure had changed,†2. “Clubs are not allowed to change their legal form or structure in order to obtain a licence, simply by ‘cleaning up’ their balance sheet while offloading debts – thus harming creditors (including employees and social/tax authorities) as well as threatening the integrity of sporting competition. Any such alteration of a club’s legal form or structure is deemed to be an interruption to its membership of a UEFA member association and consequently three years must pass before a club can apply again for a UEFA licence. 3. Fiorentina is considered the same club with the same history and honours by UEFA despite going completely bust, starting a completely new club and buying back the Fiorentina name, shirt design and badge years later. 4. Rangers currently sit at number 269 on the UEFA club rankings and have been accumulating coefficient points for the past 5 seasons , one season more than you claim the club has been around for Fiorentina’s bankruptcy was 9 years before the current FFP regulations came into force.Timişoara were a club who fell under the FFP regulations, as they stand, how are they viewed? What exactly do you think "interuption" means? Does it not mean that they were deemed to be excluded from membership for a period of time? Edited May 14, 2016 by stonedsailor 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nacho Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 What about the fact that UEFA rules state to be a football club you need to be a member of a football association? ETA why would Rangers not inherit Rangers rights to arbitration if they were the same club? It certainly does indicate that the two are different clubs. Remember under UEFA rules, as posted on the SFA website, the club is the legal entity responsible for the football team participating in national and international competitions and they must be a member of an FA. rangers have the same membership of the sfa we have always had and uefa have stated we are the same club which blows your claims out the water newco did not inherit oldcos rights to arbitration because they are a different company which is all the article proves, your interpretation that this means new club is not backed up by anything in the article what the uefa rules state is that the license applicant is the company not the club, they are the legal persona of the club. Uefa have already shown by various statements/ precendent that they consider us to be the same club either their rules contraict each other or your interpretation of them is wrong, i know which one my money is on 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williemillersmoustache Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 no they havent , theyve ignored the points raised That's your opinion. I think you're wrong. That's the beauty of an argument and the ugliness of the sevco tendency to suppress rather than discuss. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Fitlike Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 rangers have the same membership of the sfa we have always had and uefa have stated we are the same club which blows your claims out the water newco did not inherit oldcos rights to arbitration because they are a different company which is all the article proves, your interpretation that this means new club is not backed up by anything in the article what the uefa rules state is that the license applicant is the company not the club, they are the legal persona of the club. Uefa have already shown by various statements/ precendent that they consider us to be the same club either their rules contraict each other or your interpretation of them is wrong, i know which one my money is on Did Craig Whyte announce that he was placing the club or company into administration? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonedsailor Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 rangers have the same membership of the sfa we have always had and uefa have stated we are the same club which blows your claims out the water newco did not inherit oldcos rights to arbitration because they are a different company which is all the article proves, your interpretation that this means new club is not backed up by anything in the article what the uefa rules state is that the license applicant is the company not the club, they are the legal persona of the club. Uefa have already shown by various statements/ precendent that they consider us to be the same club either their rules contraict each other or your interpretation of them is wrong, i know which one my money is on They do not have the same membership they always had, they held a temporary membership at one point in 2012. You are just making up your own interpretation of UEFA rules now. The membership was interrupted and during that interuption Rangers ceased to be a club according to the definition of a club which states that a football club must be a member of an FA. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nacho Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 Fiorentina’s bankruptcy was 9 years before the current FFP regulations came into force. Timişoara were a club who fell under the FFP regulations, as they stand, how are they viewed? differently to rangers are, as uefa have stated we are the same club and continue giving us coefficient points while timsoara are not getting them, they bought over a different club - acs recas which seems to explain why the are treated differently to fiorentina and rangers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonedsailor Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 rangers have the same membership of the sfa we have always had and uefa have stated we are the same club which blows your claims out the water newco did not inherit oldcos rights to arbitration because they are a different company which is all the article proves, your interpretation that this means new club is not backed up by anything in the article what the uefa rules state is that the license applicant is the company not the club, they are the legal persona of the club. Uefa have already shown by various statements/ precendent that they consider us to be the same club either their rules contraict each other or your interpretation of them is wrong, i know which one my money is on The definition states that a club must be a member of an FA. At best rangers were reestablished in 2012. At best. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonedsailor Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 differently to rangers are, as uefa have stated we are the same club and continue giving us coefficient points while timsoara are not getting them, they bought over a different club - acs recas which seems to explain why the are treated differently to fiorentina and rangers Fiorentina is not a valid argument. The rules were very different then. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonedsailor Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 (edited) differently to rangers are, as uefa have stated we are the same club and continue giving us coefficient points while timsoara are not getting them, they bought over a different club - acs recas which seems to explain why the are treated differently to fiorentina and rangersCoefficient points are gained from European competition, Rangers if you are correct have gained no points since 2012. I would suggest that their points are still listed as they count towards the country's coefficient for entrants to European competition from Scotland for 5 years. Edited May 14, 2016 by stonedsailor 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nacho Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 They do not have the same membership they always had, they held a temporary membership at one point in 2012. You are just making up your own interpretation of UEFA rules now. The membership was interrupted and during that interuption Rangers ceased to be a club according to the definition of a club which states that a football club must be a member of an FA. we didnt hold a temporary membership, it was a conditional one (see the source at the bottom of this post) - the same membership we have always had with conditions attached, one again you are deviating from the available facts as it doesnt suit your argument youre the one making up your own interpretations of uefa rules and ignoring the fact that uefa have said we are the same club and their rules indicate we are the same club the membership wasnt interrupted , it was deemed to be interrupted (a subtle distinction which seems too complex for you to grasp) which uefa rules show doesnt stop the club being considered the same club "club can apply again" "A conditional membership will be issued to Sevco Scotland Ltd today, allowing Sunday’s Ramsdens Cup tie against Brechin City to go ahead. Following the completion of all legal documentation, the Scottish Premier League will conduct the formal transfer of the league share between RFC (IA) and Dundee FC on no later than Friday 3rd August 2012. At this point, the transfer of Scottish FA membership will be complete.†0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonedsailor Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 we didnt hold a temporary membership, it was a conditional one (see the source at the bottom of this post) - the same membership we have always had with conditions attached, one again you are deviating from the available facts as it doesnt suit your argument youre the one making up your own interpretations of uefa rules and ignoring the fact that uefa have said we are the same club and their rules indicate we are the same club the membership wasnt interrupted , it was deemed to be interrupted (a subtle distinction which seems too complex for you to grasp) which uefa rules show doesnt stop the club being considered the same club "club can apply again" "A conditional membership will be issued to Sevco Scotland Ltd today, allowing Sunday’s Ramsdens Cup tie against Brechin City to go ahead. Following the completion of all legal documentation, the Scottish Premier League will conduct the formal transfer of the league share between RFC (IA) and Dundee FC on no later than Friday 3rd August 2012. At this point, the transfer of Scottish FA membership will be complete.†I thought you said it was the same membership? It was a conditional one with full membership transferring at a later date. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nacho Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 Coefficient points are gained from European competition, Rangers if you are correct have gained no points since 2012. I would suggest that their points are still listed as they count towards the country's coefficient for entrants to European competition from Scotland for 5 years. we have been gaining country coefficent points for the last 4 years the season before that we gained more than that because we drew with malmo, this is included on our coefficent ranking even though you claim we were a different club at that point, continuation is clearly shown by that so in other words you are talking bollocks 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nacho Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 I thought you said it was the same membership? It was a conditional one with full membership transferring at a later date. it is the same membership, if you cant understand what that says then you shouldnt be taking part in this conversation, 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonedsailor Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 TimiÅŸoara were still listed with points in 2014. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonedsailor Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 it is the same membership, if you cant understand what that says then you shouldnt be taking part in this conversation, INTERRUPTED. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Fitlike Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 'A conditional membership has been issued to Sevco Scotland to allow the game against Brechin City to go ahead' Marvellous. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 (edited) Im quite happy to consider any evidence put in front of me regarding the issue, the difference between our positions is that i can provide stuff that says rangers are the same club, while the stuff you provide is all of the "this means rangers are a new club" variety. All the stuff you provide is open to interpretation and 95% of the stuff you claim is proof of new club is contradicted or disproved by the better quality evidence available.Your stuff is of similar nature. You just call it proof because you like the look of it.Either position is reliant on an interpretation. Edited May 15, 2016 by Monkey Tennis 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonedsailor Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 You're stuff is of similar nature. You just call it proof because you like the look of it.Either position is reliant on an interpretation. All positions, on everything, are based on nothing more than opinion. There are 7 billion people in the world, each and every one of them with a different view on reality. That is the greatest beauty of this world. I have changed my mind on the same club different club argument many times. At this point in time I believe that legally and morally the new club argument has a greater credence but in saying that continuation lies with the fans. The "club", if it is viewed as an ethereal entity, is the fans. The fans are the beating heart of a club and they have never changed, the team on the park represents the fans. It is the real club which has changed, the real club is new without doubt but the ethereal club is just the same. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DA Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 All positions, on everything, are based on nothing more than opinion. There are 7 billion people in the world, each and every one of them with a different view on reality. That is the greatest beauty of this world. I have changed my mind on the same club different club argument many times. At this point in time I believe that legally and morally the new club argument has a greater credence but in saying that continuation lies with the fans. The "club", if it is viewed as an ethereal entity, is the fans. The fans are the beating heart of a club and they have never changed, the team on the park represents the fans. It is the real club which has changed, the real club is new without doubt but the ethereal club is just the same. I don't want to lower the tone but do zombies have beating hearts? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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