Big Rangers Administration/Liquidation Thread - All chat here!

[Monkey Tennis]

The only thing saline is your tears that we're the same club, chap.

That would work really well, if he'd not said "salient" properly in the first place.

[Monkey Tennis]

And when we get promotion we are going for 55

As a post, falling where it does in the discussion, it's almost perfect in quite how it frames the imbecilic nature of so many Rangers fans.

[stonedsailor]

As a post, falling where it does in the discussion, it's almost perfect in quite how it frames the imbecilic nature of so many Rangers fans.

Acht leave him. He just wanted to join in but did not understand the conversation.

[stonedsailor]

Sevco.

I knew we could count on you Beeny. Rangers fans will want their club to avoid paying, regardless of how it's old players end up on the scrapheap. Paying that tax bill will never happen and seeing ex 9iar heroes with "homeless, spare some change" placards outside the Govan metro station could become common place.

[stonedsailor]

Justice for the 87.

Make their club pay.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/former-rangers-stars-knew-were-7666604#THs864eFDMjYB225.97

[Njord]

To save the hits stoney..

Former Rangers stars knew they were a target for taxman, claims expert who says 'side letters' prove half of those on EBTs were informed of risk

EX-GERS players and staff who demanded former owner David Murray underwrite the “loans†would have been informed of the risk, says Graham Webber, of WTT Consulting.

HALF the Rangers players who took EBT payments would have known the taxman could target them, it was claimed last night.

Players who demanded former owner David Murray underwrite the “loans†would have been informed, a tax expert said.

The Record revealed today that Chancellor George Osborne has made a very specific pledge to claw back unpaid tax from individuals who used EBTs as an avoidance vehicle .

Tax expert Graham Webber, of WTT Consulting, said the existence of “side lettersâ€, which guaranteed to cover the costs of any tax demand, meant it was likely anyone signing with Rangers at that time would realise something could be amiss.

Of the 87 people to enter an EBT deal with the “oldco†club, at least 45 had side letters, according to the BBC.

These letters indemnified the players and said firms owned by Murray would pick up any future tax bill. Those companies, however, were wound up last year.

HMRC have argued that Rangers’ EBTs were top-ups to payments and not the loans they were described as.

No employee has ever paid a penny back to the club and players spoken to by the Record have privately admitted they were told they would never have to repay.

Webber said: “If you were to ask me if a footballer would know there could be problems, I’d say, ‘Probably’. The existence of these letters would point to that.â€

Webber individual players could end up paying double what they were due once interest and fines are added.

Webber offered players and officials a ray of hope: “I think it would be more difficult for HMRC to pursue individuals of a company that has been liquidated for several years.â€

WHICH IBROX STARS HAS SIDE LETTERS?

Alex McLeish - £1.7m Manager from 2001-06.

Alex Rae - £569,000 Midfielder who arrived at Ibrox in 2004 and spent two years there.

Arthur Numan - £510,000 Dutch full-back signed from PSV Eindhoven in 1998 for £4.5m. Played 118 times.

Barry Ferguson - £2.5m Played at Ibrox from 1996-2003 and 2005-2009.

Carlos Cuellar - £448,255 Spanish centre-half signed in 2007. Left in 2008.

Christian Nerlinger - £1.8m German midfielder played from 2001-04.

Craig Moore - £1.1m Australian centre-half in 1994-98 and 1999-2005.

Dado Prso - £1.9m Croatian signed in 2004. Scored 50 goals in 108 games.

Dan Eggen - £68,000 Norwegian defender signed in 2003. Did not play.

Egil Ostenstad - £370,000 Norwegian forward arrived in 2003. Played 11 times.

Fernando Ricksen - £684,225 Dutch right-back from 2000-06.

Gavin Rae - £376,000 Midfielder from 2004-07.

Gregory Vignal - £173,000 French defender played 43 times from 2004-05.

Ian McGuinness - £25,400 Club doctor was sacked after Paul Le Guen left.

Jan Wouters - £285,000 Coach under Dick Advocaat and McLeish. Left in 2006.

Jean-Alain Boumsong - £630,000 Frenchman joined in 2004 on a free. Sold for £8m after 18 games.

Jerome Bonnissel - £48,000 French left-back who arrived in 2003 from Bordeaux. Played three games.

Joel Le Hir – £28,275 Physio under Paul Le Guen from 2006-2007.

Julien Rodriguez - £638,000 French centre-half played 34 times in 2005-07.

Kevin Muscat - £1m Defender joined in 2002. Played 22 games.

Kris Boyd - £215,000 Signed from Kilmarnock in 2006 for £500,000.

Libor Sionko - £187,000 Czech played 18 games in 2006-07.

Lorenzo Amoruso - £639,000 Defender from 1997-03.

Marvin Andrews - £316,025 Centre-half joined in 2004. Played 43 matches

Michael Ball - £1.4m English left-back signed from Everton in 2001 for £6.5m. Played 55 games.

Michael Mols - £260,000 Dutch striker arrived in 1999 and spent five years at Ibrox.

Mikel Arteta - £674,603 Spanish midfielder joined in 2002 and played 50 matches. Moved to Everton.

Nacho Novo - £1.2m Spanish striker from 2004-10

Neil McCann - £500,000 Winger joined from Hearts in 1998 for £2m and played over 100 games.

Olivier Bernard - £224,000 French defender signed in 2005. Played nine times.

Paolo Vanoli – £592,000 Italian left-back joined from Bologna in 2003 and played in 28 matches.

Paul Le Guen – £201,250 Manager in 2006-07.

Pedro Mendes – £1m Portuguese joined in 2008 for £3m. Left in 2010.

Peter Lovenkrands – £902,000 Danish winger arrived in 2000. Scored 37 times in 129 games.

Ronald De Boer – £1.2m Dutchman joined in 2000. Stayed for four years.

Ronald Waterreus – £510,000 Goalie signed in 2004. Played 49 times

Sasa Papac – £319,00 Bosnian left-back played 161 games in 2006-12.

Sotirios Kyrgiakos - £532,200 Greek centre-half from 2005-06.

Stefan Klos - £2m German keeper from 1999-2007.

Stephane Wiertelak - £28,275 French fitness/physiotherapy coach under Le Guen.

Steven Davis – £600,000 Former club captain.

Steven Thompson – £485,000 Striker from 2003-06.

Thomas Buffel - £1.2m Belgian midfielder from 2005-08.

Yves Colleau - £106,200 Assistant to Paul Le Guen from 2006-2007.

Zurab Khizanishvili - £405,000 Georgian defender from 2003-05 Georgian defender.

[The DA]

 

 

"Webber offered players and officials a ray of hope: “I think it would be more difficult for HMRC to pursue individuals of a company that has been liquidated for several years.â€

 

Interesting.  Is he saying that this guarantee to cover any tax demands might survive the death of the indemnifying company?

 

I suspect Hector wants his money and won't let death get in the way. 

[weirdcal]

Side letters are from club or company? All the wording says club but the letter head is 'rangers football club plc founded 1872'

[stonedsailor]

To save the hits stoney..

It is quite shocking the level of debt that the club has now passed on to it's former heroes. A total disrespect for the service and glory those guys gave the club and fans. Thrown to the wolves but it's okay they are paying the living wage now.

[stonedsailor]

Interesting. Is he saying that this guarantee to cover any tax demands might survive the death of the indemnifying company?

I suspect Hector wants his money and won't let death get in the way.

Hector is quite persistent, as he has shown with this case so far. I suspect that many will declare bankruptcy long before the tribunal system is exhausted. Edited April 2, 2016 by stonedsailor

[The DA]

Side letters are from club or company? All the wording says club but the letter head is 'rangers football club plc founded 1872'

 

Do the side-letters mention indemnifying the loanee?  I saw a copy of Tore Andre Flo's letter recently (as you say, on headed paper) but I can't remember whether it mentioned guaranteeing to pay any tax.

 

If it did, would this just be another example of 'the titles staying with the club and the debt dying with the company' claim?

[williemillersmoustache]

The Sheep did ok as did DUFC but Rangers under Wee Dick around 1998-2000 played magisterial football.

 

Sheep did 'ok' 

 

Also Dicks side doesn't count because as you well know, you were cheating then too with the Discount Option Scheme.  Which is of course academic as Fegies side was significantly better. 

[williemillersmoustache]

Graeme Souness was paid £30.000?  10 years after he left?  "What service were you being remunerated for Graeme?" Asked no journalist ever.

[stonedsailor]

Do the side-letters mention indemnifying the loanee? I saw a copy of Tore Andre Flo's letter recently (as you say, on headed paper) but I can't remember whether it mentioned guaranteeing to pay any tax.

If it did, would this just be another example of 'the titles staying with the club and the debt dying with the company' claim?

The EBTs have been judged to be income and as such subject to PAYE rules. The budget move to pursue recipients of EBTs only kicks in if the employer who provided the EBTs cannot pay their obligations.

Rangers agreed, under the 5 way agreement, to service all football related debts. Now that the tax debt has been passed to footballers it is without a doubt football related.

[bennett]

I knew we could count on you Beeny. Rangers fans will want their club to avoid paying, regardless of how it's old players end up on the scrapheap. Paying that tax bill will never happen and seeing ex 9iar heroes with "homeless, spare some change" placards outside the Govan metro station could become common place.

You been up all night ya mad stoner?

[stonedsailor]

You been up all night ya mad stoner?

No

[stonedsailor]

Morning all. The sun is shining over the Baltic and it's another day closer to 55.

87

[Monkey Tennis]

That is disingenuous in the extreme to use that as evidence that the ASA recognise Rangers as a new club, given what the ASA decision ultimately was. A very kind person would call it tenuous, but it isn’t even that good. You’re pretty much getting ignored by me after that try.

Of course, it's disingenuous and he's at it a bit.

What it does though is once more cast a light on how problematic the wording is. A daft, overly vigilant approach is needed to avoid saying things like "New club". It once more demonstrates that the reality is far from clear cut.

Tedi's bleating on the subject illustrates further that the ASA ruling was dependent on those reached by football's governing bodies and it therefore has no right to be cited as further independent evidence by those desperate to insist continuation has been seamless.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Monkey Tennis

[stonedsailor]

Of course, it's disingenuous and he's at it a bit.What it does though is once more cast a light on how problematic the wording is. A daft, overly vigilant approach is needed to avoid saying things like "New club". It once more demonstrates that the reality is far from clear cut.Tedi's bleating on the subject illustrates further that the ASA ruling was dependent on those reached by football's governing bodies and it therefore has no right to be cited as further independent evidence by those desperate to insist continued has been seamless.

Same club, if they pay their football related debts as they agreed. Justice for the 87.

[bennett]

Out of interest what would happen if some players paid back some money to the mih ebt scheme?