Blaven Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Just got a lovely wee letter through the post from a 19 year old student named Sophie. She wanted to give me her thoughts ( same old pish) on the referendum. Still telling us that Scotland will be walking away from jobs, the pound and the EU. Not woken uo to the fact that its the UK thats walking away from the EU yet. Its also still just Alex Salmond thats to blame. O and my personal favourite "best of both worlds" gets top billing. I do pray that the YES letters dont make No voters puke as much as I have at this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banterman86 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Not woken uo to the fact that its the UK thats walking away from the EU yet. What fact is this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Just for comparison, the population of Yorkshire and the Humber is 5.3 million. Very similar to Scotland's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamaldo Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Just got a lovely wee letter through the post from a 19 year old student named Sophie. She wanted to give me her thoughts ( same old pish) on the referendum. Still telling us that Scotland will be walking away from jobs, the pound and the EU. Not woken uo to the fact that its the UK thats walking away from the EU yet. Its also still just Alex Salmond thats to blame. O and my personal favourite "best of both worlds" gets top billing. I do pray that the YES letters dont make No voters puke as much as I have at this one. I think it goes without saying that the letters are not from who they appear to be. A few months ago my mother got a letter from a single mum of three (allegedly) about how the "news that we would be leaving the pound meant she would be voting No". It was also filled with the same cliches you just mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tio Pepe Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Just got a lovely wee letter through the post from a 19 year old student named Sophie. She wanted to give me her thoughts ( same old pish) on the referendum. Still telling us that Scotland will be walking away from jobs, the pound and the EU. Not woken uo to the fact that its the UK thats walking away from the EU yet. Its also still just Alex Salmond thats to blame. O and my personal favourite "best of both worlds" gets top billing. I do pray that the YES letters dont make No voters puke as much as I have at this one. The UK is not walking away from the EU. 3 parties (Conservative, Green and UKIP) have a policy that a referendum should be held. The other parties are presently unwilling to offer the electorate a democratic choice. Scotland will be leaving the EU if it leaves the UK. I have little doubt that an application to join will be successful and promptly but there has to be a risk that this is not the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 The UK is not walking away from the EU. Why does the Nat fear campaign keep trying to sell this pup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Just to check renton, is there a democratic deficit for the people of Yorkshire? They didn't elect a Conservative/Lib Dem government. It could be aruge there is, and when the people of Yorkshire decide they want more devolved powers and campaign for it, I'll be right behind them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 It could be aruge there is, and when the people of Yorkshire decide they want more devolved powers and campaign for it, I'll be right behind them. Right. Do the people of the Shetland Islands have a democratic deficit in Scotland? They didn't vote for the SNP and their votes don't directly affect election results, so I guess they must have. Lot of democratic deficits about! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 There is no democratic deficit. Scotland, if anything, is overrepresented in Westminster - just take a look at the number of MP's per million heads. Whether you like it or not, Scotland only represents c. 10% of the UK - a number not too dissimilar to Yorkshire or other regions within the UK. You'd be as well asking how often the Welsh, Yorkshire, Northern Irish, Home Counties, London vote has in isolation affected the overall outcome. As it happens, from 1997 to 2010 the government in power was the most popular party in Scotland. From 2010 to the present day, Scottish votes prevented a majority Conservative government. I'm not saying Scotland should have more MPS, as you say we are over represented in terms of population, all that means is that there is no equitable way in which Scotland can be represented in the Union, ever. As for your second point, as I keep saying, it's not the fact that we vote for one and get the otbher, it's the fact that our votes on all but the closest elections make no fundamental difference to the outcome. We get Labour because England votes for Labour, we get Conservatives becuase England votes for conservatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Right. Do the people of the Shetland Islands have a democratic deficit in Scotland? They didn't vote for the SNP and their votes don't directly affect election results, so I guess they must have. Lot of democratic deficits about! Do they not? They have previously contributed to adding enough Lib dem MPs to allow them to form a ruling coalition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I'm not saying Scotland should have more MPS, as you say we are over represented in terms of population, all that means is that there is no equitable way in which Scotland can be represented in the Union, ever. So your point is, in an election covering 65 million people, 5 million people don't decide the result? Wow. In the Scottish election, the people of Falkirk don't directly get to elect the government. I think this is disgraceful. Why should the party I vote for not get in every time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banterman86 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Do they not? They have previously contributed to adding enough Lib dem MPs to allow them to form a ruling coalition. Are you talking about Shetland or Scotland here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Do they not? They have previously contributed to adding enough Lib dem MPs to allow them to form a ruling coalition. They voted LD in 2011. It's an SNP government. How is this fair on them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 So your point is, in an election covering 65 million people, 5 million people don't decide the result? Wow. In the Scottish election, the people of Falkirk don't directly get to elect the government. I think this is disgraceful. Why should the party I vote for not get in every time! No, as I keep saying it's not that you vote one way and get the other - that's just democracy, it's more the fact that whatever way you vote doesn't ultimately matter. With only 10% of the UK populace this is a confirmed fact. It's not unfair and it's not wrong, it's simple demographics. Scottish votes will not usually matter in deciding who governs Scotland, I think that's kinda important. it can be argued that in thre Holyrood system, with smaller constituencies and a different voting system that each vote matters a lot more and that the people of Falkirk certianly have more say in how Scotland is run than they do in how the UK is run, or indeed more say than Scotland as a whole doe sin how the UK is run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joozy Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I'm not saying Scotland should have more MPS, as you say we are over represented in terms of population, all that means is that there is no equitable way in which Scotland can be represented in the Union, ever. As for your second point, as I keep saying, it's not the fact that we vote for one and get the otbher, it's the fact that our votes on all but the closest elections make no fundamental difference to the outcome. We get Labour because England votes for Labour, we get Conservatives becuase England votes for conservatives. The votes of 10% of the population don't always make a difference to the outcome - what a massive f**king surprise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 The votes of 10% of the population don't always make a difference to the outcome - what a massive f**king surprise. Exactly. Since there is no way that Scotland will, on a regular basis, be able to influence the composition of the UK parliament and therefore be able to pass legislation that will make Scotland a better place to live, why in the name of f**k would you persevere with that system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banterman86 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Exactly. Since there is no way that Scotland will, on a regular basis, be able to influence the composition of the UK parliament and therefore be able to pass legislation that will make Scotland a better place to live, why in the name of f**k would you persevere with that system? Scotland isn't a block vote. Scotland is able to pass legislation that makes scotland a better place to live Legislation passed in the interest of some scottish demographics will be in the interest of soemrUk demographics and vice versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joozy Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Exactly. Since there is no way that Scotland will, on a regular basis, be able to influence the composition of the UK parliament and therefore be able to pass legislation that will make Scotland a better place to live, why in the name of f**k would you persevere with that system? The exact same argument could be applied to the Shetlands in a Holyrood context; Yorkshire in a Westminster context; or any other small region within a large country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 The exact same argument could be applied to the Shetlands in a Holyrood context; Yorkshire in a Westminster context; or any other small region within a large country. I disagree on your first point: The holyrood system affords a more democratic system than Westminster and at least the Sheltand MSP is closer to his constituents - also, given the usual coalition nature of Holyrood you can argue that those Sheltand votes will still be important in defining who is in charge at the end of it all. Your last point is salient. Ultimately these technical arguments rest on the nature of identity. If you see your identity as primarily British and think of scotland as a region of a country, then all the arguments mean nothing, if you identify primarily as Scottish then you see Scotland as the primary organising structure of a nation, then we are a nation with little authority to govern yourself in a larger state, in which case we should seek a solution that gives us that authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confidemus Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 The exact same argument could be applied to the Shetlands in a Holyrood context; Yorkshire in a Westminster context; or any other small region within a large country. Scotland is not a small region within a large country you complete fuckstick. I'll wait for the BCC to pounce on this. They've been a disgrace in this thread, so I shouldn't imagine it'll take long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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