Scottish Independence

[AUFC90]

Stiglitz is of the opinion that corporation tax cuts reduce equality in society, the idea that he will u-turn on this idea in the context of an independent Scotland is just nonsense.

Again,I have no problem with people backing a CT cut, but the idea that it will be a progressive polviy in an indy scotland is just nonsense.

Scotland breaking away is a bit different to your usual run of the mill tax decrease. So unless he referenced Scotland becoming independent, his comments on corporation tax cuts have hee haw to do with this debate. You guys are really scraping the bottom of the barrel here. It's tragic.

[AUFC90]

Just to be clear, you're contending that Joseph Stiglitz could credibly think the following:

UK rate of corporation tax falling from 24%-21% = "just a gift to the corporations increasing inequality in our society"

However,

Scotland reducing rate of corporation tax from 21%-18% =/= "a gift to the corporations increasing inequality in our society"

Pray, tell, how so?

Different situations. Carry on.

[banterman86]

After Milibands comments regarding the race to bottom, people did some research on all Europeans countries. Guess what ? None of them changed their tax rate to counter a neighbour decreasing theirs. Absolutely none of them have ever been in a race to bottom. Milliband and your fine self are talking shit.

Why are we just talking europe here? We live in a globalised economy after all..

http://taxjustice.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/corporate-taxationb-next-race-to-bottom.html

[banterman86]

Scotland breaking away is a bit different to your usual run of the mill tax decrease. So unless he referenced Scotland becoming independent, his comments on corporation tax cuts have hee haw to do with this debate. You guys are really scraping the bottom of the barrel here. It's tragic.

again, I have no issue with people saying a CT cut would be a good thing, simply that it's not progressive.

[AUFC90]

Why are we just talking europe here? We live in a globalised economy after all..

http://taxjustice.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/corporate-taxationb-next-race-to-bottom.html

ACH I don't know... Maybe because we are IN Europe and IN Europe none of the countries are involved in this mythical race to the bottom.

[H_B]

Different situations. Carry on.

Murder. Dwarf. Candlestick.

[banterman86]

ACH I don't know... Maybe because we are IN Europe and IN Europe none of the countries are involved in this mythical race to the bottom.

Really?

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/07/23/charts-the-global-race-to-the-bottom-in-corporate-taxes

[SodjesSixteenIncher]

Why are we just talking europe here? We live in a globalised economy after all..

http://taxjustice.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/corporate-taxationb-next-race-to-bottom.html

A blog on page one of the google results for the search 'tax race to the bottom'? Here speaks an expert.

Weird that you didn't decide to use the first item from that search 'Tax Competition and the Myth of Race to The Bottom'. Not a blog either.

[HardyBamboo]

What about a newly fledged nation ? Did he mention whether it was bad for them or not ? Did he even reference Scotland at all when making this statement ?

If a corporation tax cut helps encourage business in the short term to help smooth over the transition period then good.

Maybe you and HB could find us a wee quote from the professor that tells us whether this idea FOR and independent Scotland is good or bad?

Or maybe you and HB could stop recycling the same garbage because you have no arguments ? Just a thought.

Pragmatism v Ideology again. This focus on corporation tax rates is just deflection, any government should try to maximise revenue, whether that is 10%, 20% or more doesn't really matter.

[H_B]

For those, laughably, trying to peddle the "UK are just not bothering to collect it" line, what measures have the Scottish government outlined that they are going to undertake in government, to remove from us the global issue of corporate, and personal, tax avoidance?

Let's be very clear here - what they are actually doing, like Ireland, is saying "We'd rather you came here, established headquarters and some jobs in our tax haven, so that even though you are paying us 10% of what you should be, 10% of something is better than 100% of nothing".

That's what the race to the bottom is. It's governments that see a quick buck in undercutting the opposition. Not necessarily a bad move.

As indeed banterman's link says :-

"You can no longer tax corporations the way you used to because corporations will in fact move," says Kyle Pomerleau, economist at the Tax Foundation, a conservative think tank.

For evidence that this is true, look at the Double Irish with a Dutch sandwich.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/double-irish-with-a-dutch-sandwich.asp

The double Irish with a Dutch sandwich technique involves sending profits first through one Irish company, then to a Dutch company and finally to a second Irish company headquartered in a tax haven. This technique has allowed certain corporations to dramatically reduce their overall corporate tax rates.

[banterman86]

A blog on page one of the google results for the search 'tax race to the bottom'? Here speaks an expert.

Weird that you didn't decide to use the first item from that search 'Tax Competition and the Myth of Race to The Bottom'. Not a blog either.

Nopes - I googled "tax race to the bottom corporation tax"

I've never suggested I'm an expert of corporation tax policy, simply that I don't see how it's progressive and I think undeructting the UK could lead to them doing likewise.

Are you talking about the Chatham House piece? Will have a read, don't know what their leanings are....

[deky]

Please all take your petty party politics and shove them right up your collective arseholes.

[Ad Lib]

Different situations. Carry on.

Are you seriously saying that Joseph Stiglitz, a man who was specifically heavily critical of the US and UK for having corporation taxes in the low 20s%, thinks that the fundamental reasons behind those rates being inequitable don't apply to an independent Scotland cutting the rate of tax even further?

Bear in mind, this is the same Joseph Stiglitz who said, in 2013:

"There should be no room in our system for countries that are complicitous in tax avoidance. Why should taxpayers in Germany help bail out citizens in a country whose business model was based on tax avoidance and a race to the bottom – and why should citizens in any country allow their companies to take advantage of these predatory countries?"

[1320Lichtie]

So much irrelevant pish has been spouted in this thread that 99 percent of people will not even take into consideration when voting, geee it a rest lads.

[Baxter Parp]

Just to be clear, you're contending that Joseph Stiglitz could credibly think the following:

UK rate of corporation tax falling from 24%-21% = "just a gift to the corporations increasing inequality in our society"

However,

Scotland reducing rate of corporation tax from 21%-18% =/= "a gift to the corporations increasing inequality in our society"

He clearly is not. He's asking for context, which is something H_B and yourself studiously avoid providing.

[Baxter Parp]

Offt, that is some mighty impressive goal post shifting there.

Do you not think it's pertinant to the conversation?

[Blaven]

For those, laughably, trying to peddle the "UK are just not bothering to collect it" line, what measures have the Scottish government outlined that they are going to undertake in government, to remove from us the global issue of corporate, and personal, tax avoidance?

Let's be very clear here - what they are actually doing, like Ireland, is saying "We'd rather you came here, established headquarters and some jobs in our tax haven, so that even though you are paying us 10% of what you should be, 10% of something is better than 100% of nothing".

That's what the race to the bottom is. It's governments that see a quick buck in undercutting the opposition. Not necessarily a bad move.

As indeed banterman's link says :-

"You can no longer tax corporations the way you used to because corporations will in fact move," says Kyle Pomerleau, economist at the Tax Foundation, a conservative think tank.

For evidence that this is true, look at the Double Irish with a Dutch sandwich.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/double-irish-with-a-dutch-sandwich.asp

The double Irish with a Dutch sandwich technique involves sending profits first through one Irish company, then to a Dutch company and finally to a second Irish company headquartered in a tax haven. This technique has allowed certain corporations to dramatically reduce their overall corporate tax rates.

I must confess that most if not all of this is way over my head but I was wondering about this race to the bottom.

If the Irish are doing as you say, then has the UK any plan to undercut them?

With Ms Bairn and BT telling us that big buisness will leave Scotland under independence,( which is utter pish) then how would any government entice them to either stay or to set up?

[Blaven]

So much irrelevant pish has been spouted in this thread that 99 percent of people will not even take into consideration when voting, geee it a rest lads.

YES. I CONCUR.

[strichener]

Are you seriously saying that Joseph Stiglitz, a man who was specifically heavily critical of the US and UK for having corporation taxes in the low 20s%, thinks that the fundamental reasons behind those rates being inequitable don't apply to an independent Scotland cutting the rate of tax even further?

Bear in mind, this is the same Joseph Stiglitz who said, in 2013:

"There should be no room in our system for countries that are complicitous in tax avoidance. Why should taxpayers in Germany help bail out citizens in a country whose business model was based on tax avoidance and a race to the bottom – and why should citizens in any country allow their companies to take advantage of these predatory countries?"

This is of course the self same Joseph Stiglitz that stated in 2010 that Greece would not default and that the notion that Greek economy was so far up shit creek that it couldn't service it's debts was absurd?

Just checking that we are speaking about the same person here.

[H_B]

This is of course the self same Joseph Stiglitz that stated in 2010 that Greece would not default and that the notion that Greek economy was so far up shit creek that it couldn't service it's debts was absurd?

Just checking that we are speaking about the same person here.

Oh right, so Joseph Stiglitz isn't to be listened to is he?

Maybe someone should tell Alex Salmond, given he has embedded his tongue firmly up his rectum. Except when he disagrees utterly with the SNP's right wing policies, when Slamond and co are curiously silent on what the "Nobel Laureate" has to say.